Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 03-01-2012, 01:01 PM

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Pyrrho · 03-01-2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

I thought hell as we speak of it was more a Catholic creation in art and literature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnotspecial

I went to several bible quote sites to search for a quote about going to hell. Deserving to go to hell and similar. No results anywhere.

Does anybody have any quotes about that? Particularly about that everybody deserves to go to hell. Thank you Jesus.

The Bible does not teach anything about Hell in the sense of eternal torment. In fact, even the "lake of fire" and "burning" descriptions are found only in the NT, and are clearly Hellenic in origin. The OT speaks instead of "Sheol" or "the grave," and seems to be saying that these are merely death, not some sort of afterlife.

As far as everyone deserving death, one can combine "the wages of sin is death" with "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and get to "all have sinned, and their wages will therefore be death."

I don't know where so many of you are getting such ideas, as this same thing was asserted in another thread. Consider:

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And others get to go to "the lake of fire" (also, Revelation 20):

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There must be some industrious liar suckering people into believing that there is nothing in the Bible about a fiery place of eternal torment. As you can see from Revelation 20:10, the idea is absolutely Biblical. It is not something Catholics made up after the Bible was written. You might also want to look up Luke 16:19-31, as the story there seems to also fit this idea. Whether you choose to call the fiery place of eternal torment "hell" or not is unimportant to whether the Bible teaches of such a place.

Edited to add:

There is also Daniel 12:

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The idea of an eternal punishment is not only in the New Testament, unlike what many would have you believe.

Pyrrho · 03-01-2012, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnotspecial

I went to several bible quote sites to search for a quote about going to hell. Deserving to go to hell and similar. No results anywhere.

Does anybody have any quotes about that? Particularly about that everybody deserves to go to hell. Thank you Jesus.

The idea of being born in sin is derived from the punishment of Adam and Eve for disobedience:

Genesis 3:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Notice, the punishment isn't just for Adam and Eve, but also pertains to their "seed" (verse 15). And obviously, their children are not born into the Garden of Eden, but out in the big bad world.

Job 14:

1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.

2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.

3 And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?

4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Edited to add:

The following are more directly answering the opening post rather than supporting the concept of original sin.

Ecclesiastes 7:

20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Isaiah 64:

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Luke 18:

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Romans 3:

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 1:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

There are undoubtedly other verses that are relevant to this.

Davka · 03-01-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

I thought hell as we speak of it was more a Catholic creation in art and literature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

The Bible does not teach anything about Hell in the sense of eternal torment. In fact, even the "lake of fire" and "burning" descriptions are found only in the NT, and are clearly Hellenic in origin. The OT speaks instead of "Sheol" or "the grave," and seems to be saying that these are merely death, not some sort of afterlife.

As far as everyone deserving death, one can combine "the wages of sin is death" with "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and get to "all have sinned, and their wages will therefore be death."

I don't know where so many of you are getting such ideas, as this same thing was asserted in another thread. Consider:

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And others get to go to "the lake of fire" (also, Revelation 20):

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, but what happens to them? Revelation also says "this is the second death."

Most people I know assume that if they are tossed into a lake of fire, such as might be found in the caldera of an active volcano, they will die. The only people that Revelation specifically says will be tormented forever are those who worship the Beast and have a mark on their foreheads or hands.

Quote:

There must be some industrious liar suckering people into believing that there is nothing in the Bible about a fiery place of eternal torment. As you can see from Revelation 20:10, the idea is absolutely Biblical.

See above.

Quote:

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The idea of an eternal punishment is not only in the New Testament, unlike what many would have you believe.

"Everlasting contempt" means they will forever be held in contempt. Hitler is held in contempt. Stalin is held in contempt. Does that mean they are aware of being held in contempt? Or are they just dead people whose names will always be a byword for "total contemptuous asshole"?

Davka · 03-01-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnotspecial

I went to several bible quote sites to search for a quote about going to hell. Deserving to go to hell and similar. No results anywhere.

Does anybody have any quotes about that? Particularly about that everybody deserves to go to hell. Thank you Jesus.

The idea of being born in sin is derived from the punishment of Adam and Eve for disobedience:

Genesis 3:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.<snip for brevity>

Notice, the punishment isn't just for Adam and Eve, but also pertains to their "seed" (verse 15). And obviously, their children are not born into the Garden of Eden, but out in the big bad world.

Their descendents share in the consequences for A&E's sin. That does not make their descendants automatic sinners at birth.

If I deforest and desertify a huge tract of land, dooming my descendents to live on deforested, desert land, does that make my descendants guilty of deforestation and desertification?

Quote:

Job 14:

1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
3 And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Context, please. This is Job whining about how unfair life is.

Quote:

Ecclesiastes 7:

20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Man, not baby. This is not an argument for original sin.

Quote:

Isaiah 64:

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Context, please. The Israelites are whining and prostrating themselves before God, pleading for a miracle and saying all the "right things," like "we are dust, we are unworthy, we are worms, the best things we can do are disgusting in your holy sight, yadda yadda yadda." It has nothing to do with a belief that all people in all times are sinners.

The NT verses are part of a later tradition - yet even they do not make the case for original sin.

Pyrrho · 03-01-2012, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

I thought hell as we speak of it was more a Catholic creation in art and literature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

The Bible does not teach anything about Hell in the sense of eternal torment. In fact, even the "lake of fire" and "burning" descriptions are found only in the NT, and are clearly Hellenic in origin. The OT speaks instead of "Sheol" or "the grave," and seems to be saying that these are merely death, not some sort of afterlife.

As far as everyone deserving death, one can combine "the wages of sin is death" with "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and get to "all have sinned, and their wages will therefore be death."

I don't know where so many of you are getting such ideas, as this same thing was asserted in another thread. Consider:

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And others get to go to "the lake of fire" (also, Revelation 20):

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, but what happens to them? Revelation also says "this is the second death."

Most people I know assume that if they are tossed into a lake of fire, such as might be found in the caldera of an active volcano, they will die. The only people that Revelation specifically says will be tormented forever are those who worship the Beast and have a mark on their foreheads or hands.

In other words, the assumption that one will die when thrown into the fire is not a good one (from your reference to Revelation 14, which I did not quote). It also is shown to be a bad assumption by Revelation 20:10, quoted above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

There must be some industrious liar suckering people into believing that there is nothing in the Bible about a fiery place of eternal torment. As you can see from Revelation 20:10, the idea is absolutely Biblical.

See above.

Quote:

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The idea of an eternal punishment is not only in the New Testament, unlike what many would have you believe.

"Everlasting contempt" means they will forever be held in contempt. Hitler is held in contempt. Stalin is held in contempt. Does that mean they are aware of being held in contempt? Or are they just dead people whose names will always be a byword for "total contemptuous asshole"?

You are ignoring the fact that the verse states that they will "awake" to shame and everlasting contempt. That is not at all compatible with your description of it.

Pyrrho · 03-01-2012, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnotspecial

I went to several bible quote sites to search for a quote about going to hell. Deserving to go to hell and similar. No results anywhere.

Does anybody have any quotes about that? Particularly about that everybody deserves to go to hell. Thank you Jesus.

The idea of being born in sin is derived from the punishment of Adam and Eve for disobedience:

Genesis 3:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.<snip for brevity>

Notice, the punishment isn't just for Adam and Eve, but also pertains to their "seed" (verse 15). And obviously, their children are not born into the Garden of Eden, but out in the big bad world.

Their descendents share in the consequences for A&E's sin. That does not make their descendants automatic sinners at birth.

If I deforest and desertify a huge tract of land, dooming my descendents to live on deforested, desert land, does that make my descendants guilty of deforestation and desertification?

Quote:

Job 14:

1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
3 And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Context, please. This is Job whining about how unfair life is.

Quote:

Ecclesiastes 7:

20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Man, not baby. This is not an argument for original sin.

Quote:

Isaiah 64:

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Context, please. The Israelites are whining and prostrating themselves before God, pleading for a miracle and saying all the "right things," like "we are dust, we are unworthy, we are worms, the best things we can do are disgusting in your holy sight, yadda yadda yadda." It has nothing to do with a belief that all people in all times are sinners.

The NT verses are part of a later tradition - yet even they do not make the case for original sin.

The later verses were intended to more directly answer the opening post, and not intended as support for the idea of original sin. I have added a comment to my earlier post in the hopes that others will not misunderstand my intent with them.

However, you bring up another point that has been discussed before, so I will simply quote from that previous thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underseer

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

I was thinking rhutchin. He's also a Calvinist, like the website's author. But the guy's right; according to the Bible, babies go to Hell.

Cite please.

The Bible says all kinds of crazy things, but this sounds like an interpretation inserted by believers, not anything I've heard of being in the Bible itself.

Children clearly go to Hell:

Proverbs 23:

13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

If they were not Hell-bound, there would be no need to do the Godly thing and beat their wickedness out of them.

Romans 5 explains that all are born in sin:

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

In Mark 16, we get a very clear picture:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Since newborns have no such beliefs, they are condemned to hell. Only those who believe go to heaven, and anyone incapable of believing is condemned to hell, since they "believeth not".

Furthermore, Psalm 58:

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

So the idea that all newborns go to heaven is, again, shown to be contradicted by the Holy Bible.

Proverbs 20:

11 Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

Children are clearly not exempt from the rules of salvation.

Jesus also willfully confuses people, so that they will go to hell instead of repenting and going to heaven:

Mark 4:

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Those who preach a mushy, lovey-dovey sort of Christianity are not preaching the Bible. God, with His great love for you, is happy to send the majority to eternal hellfire and torment.

You could also follow the advice implied by:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Did you read the linked article? Plenty of cites there.

And click on this link:

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doc...heaven_web.htm

It would have saved me some bother if I had done that, but it is obvious that the Bible does not have the soft spot for children that most secular humanists have today, or God would not have ordered the killing of the infants of the enemies of His chosen people. See, for example, Deuteronomy 20:

16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

That includes infants, pregnant women, whatever. And God also directly indiscriminately killed children in the flood as well. The idea that children are innocent is secular humanist propaganda, not the Holy Word of God Almighty (Praised be His Holy name!).

And while I am adding things:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

It is also worth noting that if it were true that all babies went to heaven, and that only adults could go to hell, then every good parent would kill all of their children while young, to insure that they go to heaven and avoid damnation. The fact that people, who make such claims, don't do this shows that they are very screwed up in their thinking, since they profess such a lie as that babies go to heaven, but they do not live in accordance with it. What kind of a parent would willfully choose to endanger their children to the possibility of eternal torment in hell, when, according to them, it could easily be avoided? They obviously are very evil indeed, wanting to have their own children run the risk of eternal damnation instead of guaranteed life eternal in paradise.

Of course, since they are wrong that all babies go to heaven, it is good that they do not (usually) act on that falsehood. But it would be far better if they did not believe such drivel.

Really, that is a fun thread.

Davka · 03-01-2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

In other words, the assumption that one will die when thrown into the fire is not a good one

No. Not even close.

Quote:

(from your reference to Revelation 14, which I did not quote). It also is shown to be a bad assumption by Revelation 20:10, quoted above.

How does Rev. 20:10 imply in any way that those tossed in the lake won't die?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

See above.

"Everlasting contempt" means they will forever be held in contempt. Hitler is held in contempt. Stalin is held in contempt. Does that mean they are aware of being held in contempt? Or are they just dead people whose names will always be a byword for "total contemptuous asshole"?

You are ignoring the fact that the verse states that they will "awake" to shame and everlasting contempt. That is not at all compatible with your description of it.

1) It doesn't say everyone will "awake" to either condition, it says "many."
2) However you wish to interpret it, "everlasting contempt" is hardly synonymous with "eternal torment and fiery torture." :huh:

Davka · 03-01-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Children clearly go to Hell:

Proverbs 23:

13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

If they were not Hell-bound, there would be no need to do the Godly thing and beat their wickedness out of them.

You really need to stop relying on the KJV for OT quotes. The word "hell" is utterly foreign to Hebrew, it's a Greek word. KJV is a fire-and-brimstone Christian translation.

In Hebrew, the kid's soul("life") is being rescued from "

Sheol," which is where everyone ends up. It is variously translated as "the pit," "the grave," "the unknown," and sometimes "the abode of the dead." The OT really does not support the NT version of the afterlife at all. It's worth reading that Wiki link for an overview of how and when this understanding of death morphed from the OT to the NT versions.

It is accurate to say that Christianity teaches that everyone deserves eternal torment. It is not accurate to say that the Bible teaches any such thing. The Bible is all over the map on the subject.

And the word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original.

Sheshbazzar · 03-01-2012, 06:22 PM

הילל בן־שחר

Isaiah 14:12

"H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS", or 'Lucifer', aliases of that old brass snake-on-a-stick idol, Jeebus Kristoes.

'HELL ben-sh'khar', 'HELL Son of the Morning', or..... 'HELL ben-sh'quar', 'HELL 'Son of the Deceptions'?

Will -you- be among them that will receive the 'MARK' † of his name?.

A lot coincidences.... Or is it just a lot of things that coincide?

.

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03-01-2012, 01:01 PM	#11
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	:devil2::devil2::devil2::devil2::devil2::devil2::d evil2::devil2::devil2::devil2::devil2::devil2::dev il2::devil2::devil2:

03-01-2012, 06:22 PM	#20
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	הילל בן־שחר Isaiah 14:12 "H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS", or 'Lucifer', aliases of that old brass snake-on-a-stick idol, Jeebus Kristoes. 'HELL ben-sh'khar', 'HELL Son of the Morning', or..... 'HELL ben-sh'quar', 'HELL 'Son of the Deceptions'? *Will -you- be among them that will receive the 'MARK' † of his name?. A lot* coincidences.... Or is it just a lot of things that coincide? .

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