PhilVaz

fenton << What if a race of aliens have been watching human development from the beginning and what if these aliens came here tomorrow and told us that everything guys like Phil Vaz believe is total bullshit? >>

I would say to the race of aliens: "I know you aliens have been examining us for many thousands of years, but you need to read more than Robert Price and Earl Doherty on the Jesus of history. May I suggest some recent efforts by J.P. Holding Shattering the Christ Myth and Eddy/Boyd The Jesus Legend. You will then understand why the Protestant evangelicals and traditional Catholics and Orthodox Christians of earth for 2000 years have believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died on the cross, and rose from the dead to forgive us our sins. And if you think the evolution of our species refutes the Christian claims, might I suggest two more books: Perspectives on an Evolving Creation by evangelical geologist Keith Miller with contributors, or Responses to 101 Questions on God and Evolution or the many other books by Catholic philosopher/theologian John Haught."

And the aliens response would be what? "Nope sorry, Jesus didn't exist." I don't think so. :banghead:

My review of J.P. Holding's book is now up at Amazon.com

Phil P

Yellum Notnef

These are going to be some REALLY frustrated aliens if they can't even get you to understand the basic premise of my question.:banghead:

The aliens I'm theorizing had a first row seat to the development of human civilizations and what they know about the core truths of Christianity is not from the bible, church fathers, pagan critics or 20th century biblical historians or theologians. They know for a fact that a man did not come back to life and than float up into the sky.
They even play you some video they've recorded while key Christian events supposably were taking place to show you there was nothing of the sort happening.

And your response is that you have some literature you'd like them to read? Wow.

PhilVaz

fenton << They know for a fact that a man did not come back to life and than float up into the sky. >>

I thought we were talking about just the bare existence of Jesus Christ. If the aliens are telling me "nope, he didn't exist" I would ask them how they know that. What is their evidence against the Gospels, against the earliest writings of St. Paul, against Josephus, etc?

If they say, "we were there!" I would again ask them "well how do I know that? You got first-century AD documentation or something?"

fenton << They even play you some video they've recorded while key Christian events supposably were taking place to show you there was nothing of the sort happening. >>

Well if they got some video, I'll tell them to "bring it on, E.T., show me."

And if that video shows Jesus performing miracles, dying on the cross just like in "Passion of the Christ", and rising from the dead, bodily appearing to his disciples at various times and locations over a period of 40 days, and then ascending into the sky, and disappearing just like in the Franco Zeffirelli movie, what then? (They might say, hey that's nothing, we learned how to do that billions of years ago. )

The videotape could go either way you know.

I figured you would bring up the better theological objection that if Jesus died for the sins of the people on earth, what about us aliens? Who died for our sins or are we sinless gods or something? :wave: Also the C.S. Lewis essay "Religion and Rocketry"

We are getting far afield of the J.P. Holding annihilation, obliteration, shattering, and demolishing of Robert Price, G.A. Wells, and Earl Doherty but I'll play along.

Phil P

brettpalmer

Oh, the irony of this is amazing! So, if a race of aliens told you they had firsthand knowledge (personal witness) you'd be skeptical because their claims (to you) are outrageous?? Remarkable.

PhilVaz

brett << So, if a race of aliens told you they had firsthand knowledge (personal witness) you'd be skeptical because their claims (to you) are outrageous?? Remarkable. >>

Well it depends on how "advanced" these aliens really were. If they are only as "advanced" as us, then like us they are stuck with the Gospels, the writings of St. Paul, and Josephus and the rest as our "information." And of course the consistent teaching of the Catholic Church on the faith passed on through the centuries.

But if they are so "advanced" that they could take us all back in an H.G. Wells time machine they built or something, OK that might be different! I freely admit it! Show me the bones of Jesus and I won't believe anymore!

Or I will "convert" to a Marcus Borg type of "Christianity" and "resurrection" (hear the Craig vs. Borg debate in about 2 hours, should be ready then, currently editing the MP3 ripped from the DVD). :wave:

Back to J.P. Holding and his absolutely horrific terrible outrageous demolition of G.A. Wells and Early Doherty, not Later Doherty.

Phil P

PhilVaz

If a race of Jesus aliens from the planet Jerusalem in the galaxy Nazareth near the black hole Satan, told you they had firsthand knowledge (personal witness) that Jesus Christ of Nazareth, formerly of planet earth (known to them as Teegeeack) rose physically from the dead and ascended into the dimension of existence Christians on earth (Teegeeack) call heaven, what would BrettPalmer, FentonMullay, Toto, and StevenCarr say collectively (you all must give the same answer) to the Jesus aliens? :wave:

Two can play that game. ><

Uh oh I'm starting to crank up my post count. I am way over 200 now.

Phil P

aa5874

So, you do believe the MYTH.

You actually BELIEVE in your heart that Jesus ROSE from the DEAD, floated through the clouds and will come back for you when you DIE in Jesus Christ.

PhilVaz

aa << You actually BELIEVE in your heart that Jesus ROSE from the DEAD, floated through the clouds and will come back for you when you DIE in Jesus Christ. >>

Yep, me and a billion other Catholics (according to World Christian Encyclopedia raw stats). Not sure about the floating part, but the ascension does require at least a "going up" and disappearing into the "dimension" of heaven. And yes Christ's return is part of the classic Christian creeds. "He will return to the judge the living and the dead."

And I actively go out of my way to read the best stuff against my beliefs as well. I am unique like that. I have one Robert Price book, one G.A. Wells book, the Doherty book, several atheist books (Dan Barker, Vic Stenger, Richard Dawkins, David Mills, George Smith, etc), and I defend evolution often at the Catholic Answers boards. Hooray! :wave:

Phil P

Steven Carr

Not quite how Acts phrases it.

The disciples look into the sky and see Jesus disappearing into the clouds.

Because, of course, they believed Heaven was somehow above the Earth, and so wrote stories accordingly.

Rather like the way Jack has to climb a beanstalk to reach the 'dimesnsion' of the Giant's castle.

aa5874

So, all the people who defend evolution should defend that Jesus was the Son of God of the Jews who is sitting on his right hand?

And, I never realised you believed in the MYTH.