Freethought & Rationalism Archive

manwithdream · 04-17-2008, 07:05 AM

I am not sure if this is the right place to mention this or not, but JP Holding is coming out with a book arguing against the idea that J was a myth. Since you all are discussing writing a book on the subject, I thought maybe it would be interesting to you.

matthewthomas · 04-17-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

I am not sure if this is the right place to mention this or not, but JP Holding is coming out with a book arguing against the idea that J was a myth. Since you all are discussing writing a book on the subject, I thought maybe it would be interesting to you.

Do you mean this one?
Impossible Faith (or via: amazon.co.uk)
Apparently...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazon blurb

...The arguments in this book are so powerful that one atheist paid over $5,000 for a response.

?!

If only this atheist, if s/he exists, had donated that money to a more worthwhile book.

Mt

manwithdream · 04-17-2008, 09:07 AM

JP Holding's new book is described here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...=111465&page=4

You have to go down the screen a little bit to find the table of contents. I don't know how to show it.

2-J · 04-17-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewthomas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazon blurb

...The arguments in this book are so powerful that one atheist paid over $5,000 for a response.

?!

If only this atheist, if s/he exists, had donated that money to a more worthwhile book.

Mt

According to one of the customer reviews, the person in question was Richard Carrier.

"This book is illuminating in that it is essentially a unique approach to the question of Christian origins, and fortunately it is one that has been battle-tested. Such critics as "Jesus Seminar" scholar Robert Price and perhaps the most prominent atheist polemicist of the Secular Web, Richard Carrier, have had their turns in responding to Holding's piece (in fact, Carrier is the $5,000 man to which Holding alludes in the banner). In my personal opinion, after reading the responses as well as Holding's rejoinders, the major contours of Holding's thesis remain well intact. " From the review by Lamont S (scroll down on the amazon link).

Steven Carr · 04-17-2008, 10:29 AM

If JP (No Link) Holding had any confidence , he would have told his readers the names of the person he was referring to.

John Kesler · 04-17-2008, 10:53 AM

Uh, fellows, there is no need to conjecture about who Richard's benefactor is, since Richard identifies the person in footnote four of his article.

Quote:

[4] My thanks go to Johnny Skeptic who fully funded the research and writing of all nineteen chapters of this present critique.

manwithdream · 04-17-2008, 11:36 AM

The book I am talking about is a new book by JP Holding that he will self-publish by May 15. He talks about it here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=111465

Toto · 04-17-2008, 12:44 PM

Egads. Here's the table of contents - including a whole bunch of posters who used to come here and lose arguments, and attacks on some familiar straw men. I think I've already read this book, for some reason.

Quote:

Table of Contents

Introduction: The Problem of the Christ Myth (James Hannam, aka Venerable Bede)

Background on state of the question in academic history and circles. Comparison to Shakespeare authorship claims. Why professional historians don’t bother and why it is left to others.

Part 1: The Extra-Biblical Evidence

Chapter 1
The Testimony of Josephus(C. E. Price, aka Layman) -- a mix of his material and mine.

Chapter 2
The Testimony of Tacitus

Chapter 3
The Testimony of Lucian and Pliny the Elder

Chapter 4
Papias’ Testimony to the Existence of Jesus (Jake O’Connell -- a Tekton reader who is attending seminary now)

Part 2: The Christ Myth, Thesis One: The “Silence” Thesis

Chapter 5
The “Silence” of Contemporary Writers

On “Remsberg’s List”

Chapter 6
The Silence of Silence

On Earl Doherty’s thesis of silence in the NT epistles

Chapter 7
Shadows of Things to Come

On the claim that the NT’s use of the OT to describe history proves the mythicist thesis

Chapter 8
The Unarguable References

On how Doherty handles clear references to an earthly Jesus in the NT epistles

Chapter 9
Earl Doherty’s Christianities (Kevin Rosero -- rose and rock blog)

On Doherty’s claim of multiple Christianities in the first century

Chapter 10
Jesus Didn’t Exist in the 21st Century

A future researcher shows that a modern hymnal proves that people of the 21st century did not believe in an earthly Jesus (parody)

Chapter 11
The Pope Leo X Quote

On the famous “fable” quote

Chapter 12
The Trypho Error

Re claims that Trypho supports the Christ myth

Chapter 13
The Silence Mythicists

Profiles of Wells, Doherty

Part 3: The Christ Myth, Thesis Two: The “Copycat” Thesis

Chapter 14
Pagan Christs, Persian Front: Mithra and Zoroaster

Chapter 15
Pagan Christs, Eastern Front: Buddha, Krishna

Chapter 16
Pagan Christs, Egyptian Front: Horus, Osiris

Chapter 17
Pagan Christs, European Front: Attis, Dionysus

Chapter 18
The Pagan Christs: The Minor Leagues

eg., Beddru of Japan

Chapter 19
The Pagan Copycat Mythicists

Profiles of Freke and Gandy, Acharya, Harpur

Chapter 20
I Have a Parallelogram

On claims of parallel practices and concept

Chapter 21
The Devil and Justin Martyr (by GDon)

Did Justin Martyr lend support to the “copycat” thesis?

Part 4: The Christ Myth Goes Hollywood

Chapter 22
The Zeitgeist Heist (by our J. B. -- when's that comin' to me, bud? )

On the Popular Internet movie

Chapter 23
The Director Who Isn’t All There

On Brian Flemming, God Who Wasn’t There

Part 5: Additional Material

Chapter 24
Did Nazareth Exist?

Chapter 25
The Story of Jesus (Jake O’Connell)

TIF-type argument against mythicist position

Chapter 26
The Popularist Mythicists

Profiles of Kenneth Humphreys, Robert Price, Richard Carrier

Toto · 04-17-2008, 12:46 PM

Needless to say, Holding's book appears to be an apologetic rehash of all the debates from these boards. Nothing new or worthwhile.

Carrier, however, intends to make a contribution to the field which will be useful in evaluating the evidence.

Yellum Notnef · 04-17-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Egads. Here's the table of contents - including a whole bunch of posters who used to come here and lose arguments, and attacks on some familiar straw men. I think I've already read this book, for some reason.

Quote:

Table of Contents

Introduction: The Problem of the Christ Myth (James Hannam, aka Venerable Bede)

Background on state of the question in academic history and circles. Comparison to Shakespeare authorship claims. Why professional historians don’t bother and why it is left to others.

Part 1: The Extra-Biblical Evidence

Chapter 1
The Testimony of Josephus(C. E. Price, aka Layman) -- a mix of his material and mine.

Chapter 2
The Testimony of Tacitus

Chapter 3
The Testimony of Lucian and Pliny the Elder

Chapter 4
Papias’ Testimony to the Existence of Jesus (Jake O’Connell -- a Tekton reader who is attending seminary now)

Part 2: The Christ Myth, Thesis One: The “Silence” Thesis

Chapter 5
The “Silence” of Contemporary Writers

On “Remsberg’s List”

Chapter 6
The Silence of Silence

On Earl Doherty’s thesis of silence in the NT epistles

Chapter 7
Shadows of Things to Come

On the claim that the NT’s use of the OT to describe history proves the mythicist thesis

Chapter 8
The Unarguable References

On how Doherty handles clear references to an earthly Jesus in the NT epistles

Chapter 9
Earl Doherty’s Christianities (Kevin Rosero -- rose and rock blog)

On Doherty’s claim of multiple Christianities in the first century

Chapter 10
Jesus Didn’t Exist in the 21st Century

A future researcher shows that a modern hymnal proves that people of the 21st century did not believe in an earthly Jesus (parody)

Chapter 11
The Pope Leo X Quote

On the famous “fable” quote

Chapter 12
The Trypho Error

Re claims that Trypho supports the Christ myth

Chapter 13
The Silence Mythicists

Profiles of Wells, Doherty

Part 3: The Christ Myth, Thesis Two: The “Copycat” Thesis

Chapter 14
Pagan Christs, Persian Front: Mithra and Zoroaster

Chapter 15
Pagan Christs, Eastern Front: Buddha, Krishna

Chapter 16
Pagan Christs, Egyptian Front: Horus, Osiris

Chapter 17
Pagan Christs, European Front: Attis, Dionysus

Chapter 18
The Pagan Christs: The Minor Leagues

eg., Beddru of Japan

Chapter 19
The Pagan Copycat Mythicists

Profiles of Freke and Gandy, Acharya, Harpur

Chapter 20
I Have a Parallelogram

On claims of parallel practices and concept

Chapter 21
The Devil and Justin Martyr (by GDon)

Did Justin Martyr lend support to the “copycat” thesis?

Part 4: The Christ Myth Goes Hollywood

Chapter 22
The Zeitgeist Heist (by our J. B. -- when's that comin' to me, bud? )

On the Popular Internet movie

Chapter 23
The Director Who Isn’t All There

On Brian Flemming, God Who Wasn’t There

Part 5: Additional Material

Chapter 24
Did Nazareth Exist?

Chapter 25
The Story of Jesus (Jake O’Connell)

TIF-type argument against mythicist position

Chapter 26
The Popularist Mythicists

Profiles of Kenneth Humphreys, Robert Price, Richard Carrier

What? Nothing about Metacrocks "barrowing" or perhaps a pearl from famous Jesus inspired mechanical genius Radorth?

04-17-2008, 07:05 AM	#1
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	JPHolding new book on the Christ Myth MERGED I am not sure if this is the right place to mention this or not, but JP Holding is coming out with a book arguing against the idea that J was a myth. Since you all are discussing writing a book on the subject, I thought maybe it would be interesting to you.

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04-17-2008, 09:07 AM	#3
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	JP Holding's new book is described here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...=111465&page=4 You have to go down the screen a little bit to find the table of contents. I don't know how to show it.

04-17-2008, 10:29 AM	#5
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	If JP (No Link) Holding had any confidence , he would have told his readers the names of the person he was referring to.

04-17-2008, 11:36 AM	#7
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	The book I am talking about is a new book by JP Holding that he will self-publish by May 15. He talks about it here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=111465

04-17-2008, 12:46 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Needless to say, Holding's book appears to be an apologetic rehash of all the debates from these boards. Nothing new or worthwhile. Carrier, however, intends to make a contribution to the field which will be useful in evaluating the evidence.

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