Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan recently said that Theophilus used a "Gospel of John" that did not contain narrative about Jesus. This is based off on old thread found here:

Had Theophilus Heard of Jesus?

I am interested in seeing what such a version of John might look like. What verses would be included?

best,
Peter Kirby

Rick Sumner

Are you hoping for a chapter by chapter summary?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Peter Kirby

Obviously, a statement of what is contained in this Jesus-free Gospel of John will be highly speculative. I just want to know what it is believed such a document could have looked like. A listing of the verses of the present John that were in a possible "John without Jesus" is what I'm after.

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

Well, to advance freely into the realm of speculation, I believe that the Jesus-free John was originally a gospel attributed to JBap, and simply a discourse gospel that was later married to a narrative. Hence the name, gospel of John.

Peter Kirby

How do you think the first twenty or so lines would have went?

How might it have ended?

Which discourses are to be included? Just the verse numbers would be great.

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

I guess this is where I regret ever opening my mouth! Good god, no, I can't make that suggestion. I wouldn't even dare. I hereby retract all my comments on the topic!

Vorkosigan

Chili

It is not that difficult and I would just sustitude the word "Jesus" with your own name with the understanding that you have accepted the Word and have been enlightened by it. I get this from Jn.1 verse 12 wherein 'to be' a child of God is equal to 'to be' a son of man.

John is where the Gospels becomes personal and we become the bread of life for others as in "Simon son of John [man] do you love me?" . . . feed my lambs, tend my sheep and feed my sheep.

Then he goes on to say that we have no choice but to be a slave to the reign of God.

GakuseiDon

I found this on the Internet, which seems to be about John the Baptist, but doesn't have any mention of "Jesus" or "Christ". The numbering seems jumbled.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was the first begotten Son of God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through the Son, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In the Word was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not *comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That *was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 For the Word was in the world, and the world was made through the Word, and the world did not know Him.
11 The Son came to His *own, and His *own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in the Word of God:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Son of God came and dwelt in their hearts, and they beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through the Word, the only begotten Son of God.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you a Prophet?"
And he answered, "No."
22 Then they said to him, "Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?"
23 He said: "I am

'The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
"Make straight the way of the Lord,"'*

as the prophet Isaiah said."
24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, saying, "Why then do you baptize if you are not Elijah, nor a Prophet?"
26 John answered them, saying, "I baptize with water, but there is One whom you do not know. Behold! The Son of God, the Word who takes away the sin of the world! 31 That He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water."
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove.
This is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God."
28 These things were done in *Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to John by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God. How can we see the kingdom of God?"
3 John said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 John answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, "How can these things be?"
10 John answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, if I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the first begotten Son of God who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of God be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should *not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He sent us His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into our hearts to condemn us, but that we through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in the Word of God is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purification.
26 And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, those who were with you beyond the Jordan--behold, they are baptizing, and all are coming to them!"
27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.
28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I have been sent by the Son of God.'
31 He who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

After these things John stayed near the Jordan; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because Herod sought to kill Him.
2 Now the Jews' Feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
3 His disciples therefore said to Him, "Depart from here and go into Judea.
4 For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly."
6 Then John said to them, "Herod hates Me because I testify that his works are evil.
8 You go up to this feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, for My time has not yet fully come."
9 When He had said these things to them, He remained near the Jordan.

10 But when his disciples had gone up, then He also went up to the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
11 Then the Jews sought Him at the feast, and said, "Where is He?"
12 And there was much complaining among the people concerning Him. Some said, "He is good"; others said, "No, on the contrary, He deceives the people about the Word of God."
13 However, no one spoke openly of Him for fear of the Jews.
14 Now about the middle of the feast John went up into the temple and taught, and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent the Word is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.
19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me? You know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.
29 *But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me."
30 Therefore they sought to take Him; but no one laid a hand on Him, because many of the people believed Him, and said, "Truly the Son of God has been manifested amongst us!"

35 John heard them and asked, "Do you then believe in the Word, which is the Son of God?"
36 But some asked, "Who is He, Lord, that we may believe in Him?"

John said to them, "He is the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Him, though he may die, he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. Do you believe this?"
27 They said to Him, "Yes, Lord, we believe that the Word of God is to come into the world."
And John said, "He who believes in the Word, believes in Him who sent the Word.
45 The Word has come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in it should not abide in darkness.
47 And if anyone hears the Son and does not *believe, the Son will not judge him; for the Word did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who rejects the Word, and does not receive the Son, has that which judges him--the Son will judge him in the last day."

And John said, "He who has God's commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves God. And he who loves the Word will be loved by the Father, and the Son of God will love him and manifest Himself to him."
22 Judas said to Him, "Lord, how is it that the Son will manifest Himself to us, and not to the world?"
23 John answered and said to him, "If anyone loves the Son, he will keep God's word; and the Father will love him, and the Son will come to him and make His home with him.
24 He who does not love the Son does not keep God's words."

And John said, "This the Son of God said to me: Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of God will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 John answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"*
32 Then John said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but the Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
35 And John said to them, "The Word of God is the bread of life. He who comes to the Word shall never hunger, and he who believes in the Word shall never thirst.
38 For the Son of God has come down from heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him who sent Him.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Him, that everyone who believes in the Son may have everlasting life; and God will raise him up at the last day."

45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who *has heard and learned from the Word of God comes to the Father.
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes *in the Word has everlasting life.
48 The Word is the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
51 The living Word is the bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that the Son gives is His flesh, which He gives for the life of the world."
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us the Son's flesh to eat?"
53 Then John said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of God and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats His flesh and drinks His blood has eternal life, and will be raised up at the last day.
55 For His flesh is *food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats His flesh and drinks His blood abides in the Word, and the Word in him.
57 As the living Father sent the Son, and the Son lives because of the Father, so he who feeds on the Word will live because of the Son.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

60 But many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
61 When John heard His disciples complaining about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of God descend from Heaven?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe."
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. And the Jews grumbled, and sought his life.

Now, near Passover, Herod the tetrach heard the words of John criticizing his works, and that he provoked grumbling among the Jews, and was moved to have John beheaded.

And then his disciples went away again beyond the Jordan to the place where John had baptized at first, and there they stayed.
41 Then many came saying, "All the things that John spoke about the Word of God was true."
42 And many believed in the Son.

30 And truly John said many other things about the Son in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe in the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in the Word.

JEST2ASK

Most interesting .... Please could you provide a source and context .... :notworthy :notworthy

GakuseiDon

Obviously, I just made it up. 99% is pasted from GJohn, though not in the original order, which is why the numbering is screwed up. I added the comments about Herod, and changed references from Jesus to John, and Jesus's first person references to 3rd person "Son of God" or "Word of God".

It was an interesting exercise, and I found it easy to remove "Jesus Christ" from it, though I had to assign comments about "the Son" to someone. John the Baptist was the obvious candidate. In fact, the whole thing hung together very well. References to "the light" were a recurring theme - it makes me wonder if it has greater significance beyond the text.