Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-17-2008, 03:37 AM

Note: This thread, marginal to begin with, is wandering off topic for this forum.

UFO's and personal beliefs belong somewhere else.

spin · 02-17-2008, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

"[N]ot want"? Naaa.

I don't believe in anything at all. In fact, believing in things is the ultimate act of irresponsibility.

I believe a lot of things though, but they're just about how the world or society works, like the sun will "rise" tomorrow (this is fundamentally uniformity). And those aren't really material for this forum.

In other words you only believe what your eyes can touch. Somehow I dont believe that Spin. Do you believe in Evolution? Do you believe in UFO'S? Are you a Buddist? Or perhaps a Deist? Atheists only believes what they can see, but yet they believe in Evolution, and many believe in alien lifeforms on other planets. Is this you spin? I dont buy that "I don't believe in nothing" because a person who does not believe in nothing....is not a person with a brain...nor human nature.

I can't help your dependence on belief (opiate of the masses, yadda, yadda), but it makes you reality-challenged, so any judgments you might make have about as much significance as a newspaper's astrology column.

(And please note post #5 anyone with any sense.)

spin

Johnny Skeptic · 02-17-2008, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Why should we respond to someone such as you? Do you know what you sound like? A big kid whinning, who sounds like he is angry with God.

Not at all. My position is that the God of the Bible does not exist.

You are a bully. You and arnoldo frequently insist on deciding which issues get discussed. That is not fair. Since you have continued to avoid replying to some of my arguments, you are not in any position to claim that I am evasive. I have made the following argument on a number of occasions, and you and arnoldo have always conveniently refused to reply to it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would at least one more Jew have accepted Jesus? Please answer the question yes or no. If you wish to elaborate further, that is fine, but please start with a yes or no answer.

No God who wanted people to believe that he can predict the future would refuse to make indisputable predictions, and needlessly create confusion by making disputable predictions. An example of an indisputable prediction would be a prediction when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year. If the Bible contained lots of predictions like that, there would be no need for people to debate whether or not at least one being exists who is able to predict the future.

You have not provided any sensible reasons why God makes disputable predictions instead of making indisputable predictions. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why there is not one single indisputable prophecy in the Bible, or in any other religious book.

You once said that God predicts the future because only he can predict the future, but that does not explain why God has never made an indisputable prophecy. Why did the Bible writers write disputable prophecies? Obviously, because the writers of false religious books do not have any choice except to write disputable prophecies.

Arnoldo embarrassed himself by claiming that God uses prophecy after the fact to strengthen the faith of believers. No Jew who lived during Ezekiel's time saw the Tyre prophecy fulfilled, nor did any Jew who lived during the next several hundred years. Since Ezekiel claimed that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would go down the streets of Tyre, and tear down its towers, it is probable that most Jews believed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre. It would not have made any sense for Ezekiel to claim that "a king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar) would go down the streets of Tyre, and tear down its towers, and fail to defeat Tyre, but it would have made sense for the "many nations" part of the prophecy to be added after it became apparent that Nebuchadnezzar would not be able to defeat Tyre. When Alexander finally defeated Tyre, some Jews must have wondered why Ezekiel did not mention Tyre.

Arnoldo embarrassed himself on another occasion when he said that if Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander that skeptics would claim that that was written after the fact. I and another skeptic told arnoldo that since many people were already aware of the previous version, it would have been too late to make changes by the time that Alexander defeated Tyre. Anyone who has just a modest amount of common sense knows that if a God wanted to convince everyone in the world that he could predict the future, he could easily have done so thousands of years ago.

If you decide to reply to this post, please be advised that I can be a bully too, and I will not reply to anything that you say unless you reply to everything that I discussed in this post.

arnoldo · 02-17-2008, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

"Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him;and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut. I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron."

"And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I, the Lord, which call you by your name, am the God of Israel."

"For Jacob (Israel) My servent's sake, and Israel My elect, I have even call you by your name: I have surnamed you, though you have not known Me."

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is NO God beside Me: I girded you, though you have not known Me." Isaiah 45

This prophecy is just one of many which proves that God.....EXIST.

According to the Minimalist school of thought it was merely written after the fact. According to this logic you can't help to prove prophecy fails time after time.

arnoldo · 02-17-2008, 07:05 AM

Also note 2 Chronicles 36:20 which indicated that Cyrus allowed the Jews to return to Israel after the land "rested" for 70 years as foretold by Jeremiah.

Quote:

And he removeth those left of the sword unto Babylon, and they are to him and to his sons for servants, till the reigning of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfil the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, till the land hath enjoyed its sabbaths; all the days of the desolation it kept sabbath -- to the fulness of seventy years.

22 And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, at the completion of the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, hath Jehovah waked up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he causeth an intimation to pass over into all his kingdom, and also in writing, saying, 23 Thus said Cyrus king of Persia, All kingdoms of the earth hath Jehovah, God of the heavens, given to me, and He hath laid a charge on me to build to Him a house in Jerusalem, that is in Judah; who is among you of all His people? Jehovah his God is with him, and he doth go up.'

Johnny Skeptic · 02-17-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

"Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him;and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut. I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron."

"And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I, the Lord, which call you by your name, am the God of Israel."

"For Jacob (Israel) My servent's sake, and Israel My elect, I have even call you by your name: I have surnamed you, though you have not known Me."

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is NO God beside Me: I girded you, though you have not known Me." Isaiah 45

This prophecy is just one of many which proves that God.....EXIST.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

According to the Minimalist school of thought it was merely written after the fact. According to this logic you can't help to prove prophecy fails time after time.

However, if a God exists, and wants everyone to believe that he can predict the future, he could easily have done that thousands of years ago, and he could easily do so today if he wanted to. You can claim that God has provided enough evidence if you want to, but you cannot logically claim that it is God's intent to convince everyone that he can predict the future, and that he used prophecy after the fact to help strengthen the faith of Jews since God could easily have strenghthened the faith of Jews much more by inspiring indisuputable prophecies instead of always inspriring disputable prophecies.

Why would a God only make disputable predictions?

arnoldo · 02-17-2008, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Isaiah began his work in the days of Uzziah King of Judah. I love it when critics claim the "written after" arguement with no proof.

The latter comment would not ring so hollow if you were to offer some "proof" for your prior assertion here.

The simple fact remains that there are no "facts" that the prophecies concerning Cyrus was written after the fact. Yes there are "theories" about Deutero-Isaiah but they are only "theories."

arnoldo · 02-17-2008, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

"Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him;and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut. I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron."

"And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I, the Lord, which call you by your name, am the God of Israel."

"For Jacob (Israel) My servent's sake, and Israel My elect, I have even call you by your name: I have surnamed you, though you have not known Me."

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is NO God beside Me: I girded you, though you have not known Me." Isaiah 45

This prophecy is just one of many which proves that God.....EXIST.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

According to the Minimalist school of thought it was merely written after the fact. According to this logic you can't help to prove prophecy fails time after time.

However, if a God exists, and wants everyone to believe that he can predict the future, he could easily have done that thousands of years ago, and he could easily do so today if he wanted to. You can claim that God has provided enough evidence if you want to, but you cannot logically claim that it is God's intent to convince everyone that he can predict the future, and that he used prophecy after the fact to help strengthen the faith of Jews since God could easily have strenghthened the faith of Jews much more by inspiring indisuputable prophecies instead of always inspriring disputable prophecies.

Why would a God only make disputable predictions?

OFF TOPIC

Gawen · 02-17-2008, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

It looks like spin does not want to tell me what he believes in....I'm still waiting...spin.

What spin believes in and you asking him is a purposeful derail of this thread....one you started. Get back to the topic, if you please.

sugarhitman · 02-17-2008, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

The latter comment would not ring so hollow if you were to offer some "proof" for your prior assertion here.

The simple fact remains that there are no "facts" that the prophecies concerning Cyrus was written after the fact. Yes there are "theories" about Deutero-Isaiah but they are only "theories."

No facts it all, is correct only assertions because Isaiah is so accurate. When you stand back and look at all the prophecies in the bible that are being disputed with questionable history. And then look at the accuracy of the prophecy about Israel which is transparent for all to see and that cannot be disputed with said history, because the present backs it up. People should question these questionable histories as well as those who use them. :wave:

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02-17-2008, 03:37 AM	#41
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Note: This thread, marginal to begin with, is wandering off topic for this forum. UFO's and personal beliefs belong somewhere else.

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