Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hinduwoman · 11-17-2008, 05:10 AM

I notice sugarhitman did not provide which version of the Bible he wanted to discuss.

Johnny Skeptic · 11-17-2008, 11:24 AM

Fundies tend to become scarce when the questions become difficult for them to answer. This thread calls the integrity of the Bible into question. I hope that skeptics refer to it when they confront fundamentalist Christians in their daily lives, and at the Internet.

sschlichter · 11-18-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Slavery. People today are false visualizing about the voluntary slavery of Israel and comparing it with the brutal Western system of Slavery. Lets turn to the text and discover the major differences.

"He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death." Exodus 22. The Western slave trade depended almost entirely on the above pratices. Israel did not engage in such practices to gain slaves. They bought their slaves who sold themselves into slavery which was a common practice in ancient times.

Slaves who were injured by their masters could gain freedom, the injury paid their debt which was aquired when they sold themselves. Critics will say this was for indentured servents, but seeing that this servent was not free shows that this law were for slaves as well.

"You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; YOU SHALL NOT OPPRESS HIM." deut. 23

This one law alone destroys the comparison between Israel and Western slavery, as well as the argument that God or Moses supports slavery. If the slaves felt that they were being treated unjustly, and they decide to flee to freedom, no one was to deny them this right. In the West Petty-Rollers patrol the woods and streets preventing and looking for escaped slaves to return them to thier murderous slave masters, Israel was prevented by said law of this cruel hunting. After this law there is no need to go any further in this arguement. That one law alone destroys the accusation of critics concerning God's supposedly support of slavery but lets hear what Jesus says about it.

A much more accurate assessement is as follows:

Item 1

Exodus 21:2-4 (NIV)

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free."

Item 2

Exodus 21:12-14 (NIV)

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death."

Item 3

Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV)

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Item 4

Leviticus 25:44-45 (NIV)

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Regarding item 1, please note that after six years, a Hebrew slave gained his freedom, but item 4 shows that slaves from other nations could be forced to be slaves for life. Part of item 4 says "You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." That is a good example of racial bigotry, but what else should one expect from a race of people who appointed themselves as God's chosen people. Chosen for what?

Regarding item 2, if a Hebrew deliberately killed another Hebrew, he was put to death, but item 3 shows that if a Hebrew deliberately killed a slave, he was not put to death, only punished, but not punished at all if the slave recovered in a day or two. That is more proof of racial bigotry.

not wanting to be rude and ignore your invitation to this thread I feel obliged to comment. However, I am no expert on the subject.

I would start with a little context. You took Lev 25:44 out of its context. these are provisions for limiting and putting parameters around the social norm of slavery at that time. this is not a command to take a slave, it is a limitation to the practice of slavery and a command to treat them better. It starts with how to treat countrymen and is a parameter on how to collect a debt. (ie. not out of the hide of your brother)

for example, you missed the fact that resident foreigners were also permitted to take slaves of Isrealites.

(Lev 25:47) " 'If a resident foreigner who is with you prospers and your brother becomes impoverished with regard to him so that he sells himself to a resident foreigner who is with you or to a member of a foreigner's family,

~Steve

sschlichter · 11-18-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Fundies tend to become scarce when the questions become difficult for them to answer. This thread calls the integrity of the Bible into question. I hope that skeptics refer to it when they confront fundamentalist Christians in their daily lives, and at the Internet.

The notion of slavery in the bible probably does make a lot of people uncomfortable. It does not take much effort though to figure out what is going on in these passages. Most people are not really up for interpretting the law because they do not bother learning the cultural context (present poster included).

Johnny Skeptic · 11-18-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following Scriptures:

Item 1

Exodus 21:2-4 (NIV)

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free."

Item 2

Exodus 21:12-14 (NIV)

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death."

Item 3

Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV)

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Item 4

Leviticus 25:44-45 (NIV)

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Regarding item 1, please note that after six years, a Hebrew slave gained his freedom, but item 4 shows that slaves from other nations could be forced to be slaves for life. Part of item 4 says "You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." That is a good example of racial bigotry, but what else should one expect from a race of people who appointed themselves as God's chosen people. Chosen for what?

Regarding item 2, if a Hebrew deliberately killed another Hebrew, he was put to death, but item 3 shows that if a Hebrew deliberately killed a slave, he was not put to death, only punished, but not punished at all if the slave recovered in a day or two. That is more proof of racial bigotry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

I would start with a little context. You took Leviticus 25:44 out of its context. These are provisions for limiting and putting parameters around the social norm of slavery at that time. This is not a command to take a slave, it is a limitation to the practice of slavery and a command to treat them better.

I did not take Leviticus 25:44 out of context. Here is what I said about item 4, which is about Leviticus 25:44-45:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Item 4 shows that slaves from other nations could be forced to be slaves for life. Part of item 4 says "You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

How is what I said out of context? My objection is that Jews considered their slaves to be property that could be in a Jewish person's will.

Allowing Jews to kill slaves without being put to death under any stated circumstances (item 3), but making Jews be put to death for killing other Jews (item 2), is not an example of fairly treating slaves. In addition, Jewish slaveowers could beat their slaves and not be punished at all if the slaves recovered within a few days (item 3). That was wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

For example, you missed the fact that resident foreigners were also permitted to take slaves of Israelites.

(Lev 25:47) "'If a resident foreigner who is with you prospers and your brother becomes impoverished with regard to him so that he sells himself to a resident foreigner who is with you or to a member of a foreigner's family,.......

Consider the following Scriptures from the NIV:

Leviticus 25:47-54

"If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan, he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him: An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years. If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him. If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly. He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly. Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

Those Scriptures discuss voluntary servitude for Jews with possible redemption. On the other hand, as far as I know, redemption was not guaranteed under any conditions for non-Jewish slaves, especially since some of the texts that I quoted say that slaves were property, and could be put in a Jewish person's will.

James Brown · 11-18-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

The notion of slavery in the bible probably does make a lot of people uncomfortable.

That's quite an understatement. Non-believers are not made uncomfortable, though. We're just appalled by it. Not by the existence of slavery in ancient cultures--that was almost ubiquitous. We're appalled that slavery--even slavery regulated by the OT standards--would be offered up by a God that's also claimed to hold the highest standard of morality. Yes, the cultural context was different, which is yet another reason why ancient biblical morality is not relevant to a modern society. We no longer populate a culture in which slavery is commonplace (in the Western world, of course. . . slavery still continues unabated in many parts of the world, sadly, in many religious countries.)

But the hypocrisy creeps in when some claim that cultural context does not apply when it comes to other doctrines, say, that of adultery. After all, if God can forbid adultery in five bare words ("Thou shalt not commit adultery.")--cultural context be damned--what was preventing him from doing the same with slavery? Culture? Smells like a cop-out. The ancient culture that the Hebrews found themselves in was also polytheistic, and yet they managed to embrace monotheism despite it. What is it about slavery that required so much hedging and excusing and regulation and justification for its modified Hebrew format, but can be unequivocally forbidden in today's era?

Johnny Skeptic · 11-19-2008, 06:41 AM

We are not just talking about slavery here, but also about brutality, and murder. If a Jew severely beat his slave, and the slave recovered within a few days, the Jew was not punished at all. If a Jew killed a slave, the Jew was not put to death, but if a Jew killed another Jew, he was put to death.

All of that evidence is in the opening post. The evidence makes a good case for the non-existence of the God of the Bible since the Bible indicates that God is loving and kind.

Johnny Skeptic · 11-19-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beforHim

Go to
here for a good explanation of slavery in the Bible.

Well, here is part of what your source (Glenn Miller) says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Miller

The images we have of the Old American South are filled with mistreatments, and we need no documentation of that here. The ANE, on the other hand, was much less severe, due largely to the differences in the attitudes of the 'master' to the 'slave'. Slavery in the ANE was much more an 'in-house' and 'in-family' thing, with closer emotional attachment. However, there were still some extreme punishments in the ANE, but the biblical witness is of a decidedly better environment for slaves than even the ANE. Exodus 21, for example, is considered by many to be unparalleled in respect to humanitarianism toward slaves, and we shall return to this in detail below. [Suffice it to mention here that Ex 21.21 restricts the treatment of the slave to be no more severe than what the community/elders could do with a regular, free citizen. This restriction on an owner should make one ponder what in the world the word 'property' might mean in such a context! But more on this in a minute…]

But in the ANE slaves were generally protected from over-abuse (under normal conditions, runaways were a problem, as we shall see).

That is a gross, dishonest distortion of the texts. Consider the following Scriptures from the opening post:

Exodus 21:12-14 (NIV)

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death."

Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV)

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

The first reference shows that if a Jew killed another Jew, he was put to death. On the other hand, the second reference shows that if a Jew killed a slave, he was not put to death, and incredibly, if the slave recovered within a days, the Jews was not punished at all. It is unfortunate that Christians are frequently so dishonest that they deny the facts even when the facts are clearly stated.

Now why in the world did Miller falsely claim that "But in the ANE slaves were generally protected from over-abuse (under normal conditions)."? Since when is death not over-abuse, and the failure to punish a Jewish slaveowner who severely beat his slave if the slave recovered within a few days not over-abuse?

Wedge · 11-19-2008, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV)

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
...

Now why in the world did Miller falsely claim that "But in the ANE slaves were generally protected from over-abuse (under normal conditions)."? Since when is death not over-abuse, and the failure to punish a Jewish slaveowner who severely beat his slave if the slave recovered within a few days not over-abuse?

Notice that the quote specifically protects someone who beats a slave as long as they don't die. Brain damage, maiming, blinding, disfiguring--not a problem so long as the slave can get up, because the slave specifically has the status of property.

All else aside, considering a sentient being as property, regardless of how well you take care of it is monstruous.

Exciter · 11-19-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Exodus 21:26-28

If a slave loses an eye or a tooth, God says you have to let them go...

That's quite nice of 'em.

Moses probably made this up because he realized a blind toothless slave is all but worthless.

Quote:

Leviticus 25:35-46
Don't treat other Israelis like slaves, when I happen to let Satan [see Job] finacialy sodomize them....

Get your slaves from those atheists and skeptics, you can keep them as slaves till they die, I don't give a flying fig. You can give 'em to your children if you want to, but don't treat other Israelis like you treat slaves, show them some respect.

eta don't forget how I let you become slaves to Pharoah and had them treat you like cattle, so I could save you and look like a good Guy....

This is still true to this day!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 15: 12-18

Stab your slave through the ear into the door if he won't leave after you free them, then they will be your slave forever

I doubt most slaves would have known about this. It sounds like a good way to get back all the stuff you gave them and an excuse to make someone a slave for life.

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11-17-2008, 05:10 AM	#41
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	I notice sugarhitman did not provide which version of the Bible he wanted to discuss.

11-17-2008, 11:24 AM	#42
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Fundies tend to become scarce when the questions become difficult for them to answer. This thread calls the integrity of the Bible into question. I hope that skeptics refer to it when they confront fundamentalist Christians in their daily lives, and at the Internet.

11-19-2008, 06:41 AM	#47
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	We are not just talking about slavery here, but also about brutality, and murder. If a Jew severely beat his slave, and the slave recovered within a few days, the Jew was not punished at all. If a Jew killed a slave, the Jew was not put to death, but if a Jew killed another Jew, he was put to death. All of that evidence is in the opening post. The evidence makes a good case for the non-existence of the God of the Bible since the Bible indicates that God is loving and kind.

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