Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Patriarch Verlch · 06-04-2006, 01:52 PM

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a026.html

There I will give you some examples of tombs found containing dead men written about in the bible.

For one if the bible is right archeologically, when then can we not assume Peter hung upside down for one in Rome.

Jesus told Peter that upon Peter's bones he would build his church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Peter's_Basilica

There is no reason that when Constantine was looking over the books in the gospels that were written by eye witnesses the disciples. In fact they state as much.

It was written in first person, it was written in their own styles of writing.

Trust me, if they can write the old testament by hand for 2,000 years, discover the dead sea scrolls and confirm the accuracy of the Old testament bible, says a lot for the authenticity of the New Testament.

You can choose not to believe it, that is fine, but it doesn't' stop the truths of the bible from getting out. For example if you steal, you will be punished by the laws of nature, you will get things stolen from you.

If you pay tithe to God, and give to God's cause, 10% of your income, you will be rewarded. God figures that if didn't provide us our needs, with which to work the land, you wouldn't be able to life. Such as water and air.

Don't believe me, try paying tithe yourself.

If you don't believe the bible, than what good it is to quote it.

I'm still wondering how atoms sprang to life, without any guidance. Then mutated into their present form, by pure accident.

Patriarch Verlch · 06-04-2006, 01:54 PM

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a010.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a005.html

There is some more extra biblical stuff.

Hedshaker · 06-04-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

Just because you say Jesus copied supposedly, the lives of other gods and demi gods doesn't mean that, say the devil didnt' suspect how the Messiah would come in the flesh and they he didn't try to imitate it, and say look, they are copying 'me'.

So let's get this straight. Satan planted the other demigod myths that so mimicked the Jesus myth, hundreds of years prior to the invent of Christianity, in order to create doubt? Are you fucking serious?

:rolling:

What a crafty son of a bitch that Satan is, eh? So is Satan Omniscient? Satan knew the future?

Hedshaker · 06-04-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

I'm still wondering how atoms sprang to life, without any guidance. Then mutated into their present form, by pure accident.

And we're wondering how God sprang to life, without any guidance. But I guess we'll just get the old God has always existed chesnut, eh?

God can do anything you want him to do, right?

Hedshaker · 06-04-2006, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a010.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a005.html

Do intelligent people actually swallow that stuff?

christiananswers.net

Again, you cannot be serious :huh:

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javaman

I've posted this before but Ted Drange's The Argument from the Bible has a great section a bit more than halfway down about the ressurection account in the gospels. I've tried to post it here before but the table's always get screwed up. I'll try this way (Starting with question two, the 'Yes' answer(s) is(are) first followed the 'No' after several spaces):

Code:

Question 	
1. How many women went to Jesus's tomb?

One - John 20:1-18          Three - Mk 16:1-8 Two - Mt 28:1-8             Many - Lu 23:55-24:10

The rest are in Yes/No format
                                             Yes 	No
2. Was it still dark out? 	John 20:1 	 	Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2

3. Did Mary Magdalene tell any men about the tomb? 	Mt 28:8; Lu 24:9-10; John 20:2 	 	Mk 16:8

4. Did she go back to the tomb with any of them? 	John 20:2-11          	Mt 28:1-10,16; Mk 16:8-14; Lu 24:9-12

5. Was there just one angel at Jesus's tomb? 	Mt 28:2-5; Mk 16:5-6 	     (There were two.) Lu 24:4-5; John 20:11-13

6. Were the angels inside the tomb? 	Mk 16:5; John 20:11-12      	(The one angel was outside.) Mt 28:2

7. Were there guards at the tomb? 	Mt 27:62-66, 28:2-4,11-15           	Mk 15:44-16:10; Lu 23:50-24:12; John 19:38-20:12

8. Did the angel(s) look like lightning? 	Mt 28:2-4      	(Humanlike) Mk 16:5; Lu 24:4

9. Did the angel(s) get to the tomb first? 	Mk 16:5         	Lu 24:2-4; John 20:1-12

10. Did Peter go alone? 	Lu 24:12        	John 20:2-6

11. Did Jesus appear first to Cephas (Peter)? 	1Co 15:3-5        	Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9; Lu 24:9-15; John 20:14

12. Did he appear at all to Mary Magdalene? 	Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9 John 20:11-14        	Lu 24:1-51; 1Co 15:3-8

13. Did he appear to her at the tomb after the disciples were told? 	John 20:1-14 	       (Not at the tomb, and before they were told) Mt 28:1-9; Mk 16:1-10

14. Was she alone when Jesus appeared to her? 	Mk 16:9-10; John 20:10-14 	       (The other Mary was with her.) Mt 28:1-9

15. Did she recognize him immediately? 	Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9-10 	       John 20:14

16. Did Peter go to the tomb before the others were told about it? 	(But he was not alone.) John 20:1-3,18        	(It was after, and he went alone.) Lu 24:9-12

17. Did Jesus specially appear to two disciples? 	Mk 16:12; Lu 24:13-31        	Mt 28:16-18; John 20:19-29

18. Did they recognize him immediately? 	Mk 16:12-13        	Lu 24:13-16

19. Did he later appear as they spoke to the others? 	Lu 24:36        	(It was after.) Mk 16:14

20. Did he scold the others for not believing them? 	Mk 16:14        	Lu 24:35-51

21. Did Jesus appear just once to the disciples? 	Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51        	(It was thrice.) John 20:19-26, 21:1-2,14

22. Was the 1st appearance to them in Galilee? 	Mt 28:9-10,16-18        	Lu 24:33-36,49-51; John 20:18-26; Ac 1:4

23. Did they all recognize him immediately? 	Mk 16:14-20; John 20:19-20        	Mt 28:16-17; Lu 24:36-41

24. Did he ascend to heaven immediately afterwards? 	Mt 28:9-10,16-20; Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51        	John 20:19-26, 21:1; Ac 1:1-9; 1Co 15:3-8

25. Did he appear to them twice, eight days apart? 	John 20:19-26        	Mt 28:9-20; Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51

26. Did he appear to the Twelve, to over 500, & then specially to James? 	1Co 15:5-7        	Mt 27, 28; Mk 16; Lu 24; John 20, 21

27. Did Jesus ascend to heaven from Bethany? 	Lu 24:50-51        	(From Mt. Olivet) Ac 1:9-12; (Jerusalem) Mk 16:14-19

28. Was Jesus the only one to ascend to heaven? 	John 3:13        	(Enoch and Elijah too) Heb 11:5; 2Ki 2:11

29. Did Paul's companions hear Jesus's voice? 	Ac 9:7        	Ac 22:9, 26:14

1. Mary Magedaline was the first one Jesus revealed himself to. The women saw the TOMB together and the angel that told them about Jesus. But yes there were 3 women who went to the tomb initially. Mary was just singled out when she saw Jesus first.

2. It was early in the morning when they found the tomb was opened. When they were going back to tell it was daybreak.

3. They told no one about the tomb THAT WEREN'T DISCIPLES in fear of something bad happening. When Jesus revealed himsef in a form of a man to Mary, she then told the rest of the disciples that she had actually seen him.

4. This question is just fallacious. The Disciples DID go to the tomb after the women told them about it.

5. Mary saw two angels right before Jesus revealed himself to her. One that had rolled the tomb back and what that was sitting in the tomb.

6. Angels can't move?

7. No where in the scripture does it say that the guards weren't there. They fled to tell pilate once the tomb was opened. Pilate's plan was to say that they weren't there and that the disciples stole the body.

8. Another context error on your part. They were both. Lighted and human like. This is kind of a nitpicking question but...whatever.

9. Well of course they did. The tomb was opened and an angel did so. The gospels that you claim to say that the angel didn't get there just fail to metion that it was an angel that opened it b/c it is apparent...that's all that means.

10. It doesn't say Peter went alone in either of those gospels. All it says is that he marveled over what had happen when he arrived at the tomb. There were other disciples with him but it just singled Peter out b/c he was the closest to Jesus.

11. First of all Corinthians isn't a gospel. And yes, Peter was the first of the DISCIPLES to see him. No other gospels contradict that.

12. Yes she did. Luke just skips ahead to were she went and told the apostles about it. The other Gospels tell what happened when she was at the tomb.

13. In John the disciples hadn't been told yet about what had happened BEFORE Jesus appeared at the tomb. Jesus appeared many times. Another noncontradictory question.

And so you get the point. What is seemingly contradictory is NOT at all when you look at the text. There are more questions but I don't feel like I have to prove that these questions aren't contradictory any more. With these kinds of questions they are easily taken out of context, especially by a non Christian.

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piking Viking

Then provide the Roman records backing this up. If you claim that they petitioned this there must be some record, right?

This seems like it does more to your defense than mine. If they left him up there...they would surely know where his body was or what happened to it. But since they couldn't find it and didn't know what happened there isn't a conclusion. There would be a conclusion if they had left him up there...b/c they would know what happened to him. Pilate is the one who put him in the tomb. Are you going to deny Pilate's existence as well?

RGD · 06-04-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

This seems like it does more to your defense than mine. If they left him up there...they would surely know where his body was or what happened to it. But since they couldn't find it and didn't know what happened there isn't a conclusion. There would be a conclusion if they had left him up there...b/c they would know what happened to him. Pilate is the one who put him in the tomb. Are you going to deny Pilate's existence as well?

All you have presented is personal speculation. Your statements are contradicted by all reliable Biblical scholars - whether Christian or otherwise.

Let's face facts:

1) There is no evidence of the resurrection except second-hand heresay evidence from the worse possible sources.

2) There is no 'extra-biblical' evidence for any martyrdom of the disciples.

3) It's nonsense, pure and simple.

And the Qu'ran is much better poetry.

RGD · 06-04-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a010.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a005.html

There is some more extra biblical stuff.

This does not support your assertions. This does not, for example, support your claim that the disciples were martyred.

You have provided no support for any of your contentions, and considering the sources you actually cite don't have much relevance, I must question your ability to provide any.

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedshaker

Do intelligent people actually swallow that stuff?

christiananswers.net

Again, you cannot be serious :huh:

What is it with you people and wanting to take on historical facts. The Bible is very very historically accurate. Just b/c you can say that it isn't, maybe b/c it goes against your belief, doesn't change the fact that it is accurate. Everybody looks at the same evidence, its just funny how much people feel the need to discredit the bible.

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06-04-2006, 01:52 PM	#51
Patriarch Verlch Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 111	http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a026.html There I will give you some examples of tombs found containing dead men written about in the bible. For one if the bible is right archeologically, when then can we not assume Peter hung upside down for one in Rome. Jesus told Peter that upon Peter's bones he would build his church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Peter's_Basilica There is no reason that when Constantine was looking over the books in the gospels that were written by eye witnesses the disciples. In fact they state as much. It was written in first person, it was written in their own styles of writing. Trust me, if they can write the old testament by hand for 2,000 years, discover the dead sea scrolls and confirm the accuracy of the Old testament bible, says a lot for the authenticity of the New Testament. You can choose not to believe it, that is fine, but it doesn't' stop the truths of the bible from getting out. For example if you steal, you will be punished by the laws of nature, you will get things stolen from you. If you pay tithe to God, and give to God's cause, 10% of your income, you will be rewarded. God figures that if didn't provide us our needs, with which to work the land, you wouldn't be able to life. Such as water and air. Don't believe me, try paying tithe yourself. If you don't believe the bible, than what good it is to quote it. I'm still wondering how atoms sprang to life, without any guidance. Then mutated into their present form, by pure accident.

06-04-2006, 01:54 PM	#52
Patriarch Verlch Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 111	http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a010.html http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a005.html There is some more extra biblical stuff.

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