Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John A. Broussard · 11-23-2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

My claim is that the Bible is an historical document and it describes an event in the book of Joshua where the sun stooped moving in its normal path (from a point of perspective on earth) from east to west. Others (the Koran) may make different assertions of which I am not aware. I do not have the time to research everything (and you do not seem to be able to do so either). There are many possible views on this, even an atheist view, and we each come to a conclusion based on a limited amount of information to support our conclusions.

And we keep asking what happened on that day when the Bible says Joshua made the sun stand still. So far you've given us links that explain it by saying it just looked that way, the sun goes around the earth, and another claiming it had something to do with hailstorms.

How about YOU telling us what YOU think happened instead of giving us a large number of alternatives?

My explanation is quite simple. The bible is a collection of contradictions, some with a historical basis, many with none. I list Joshua's act as one example of the latter. If it is indeed a mythical event, then you're dependence on the bible as an infallible historical document is totally misplaced.

So let's get back to essentials.

The bible unequivocally states that Joshua made the sun stand still.

Did he or didn't he?

If he did, tell us what actually happened.

Thanks for reading my posts, for providing all those links and for, hopefully, explaining exactly what the bible is talking about in this instance.

John A. Broussard · 11-23-2005, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Actually, I think it is the atheists who believe in the whole caveman thing. The Bible says that man was created within the last 15,000 years so

Would you give me the verse that states that man was created within the last 15,000 years? I've looked for it and can't find it, so I need your help.

Thank you.

Wayne Delia · 11-23-2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Actually, I think it is the atheists who believe in the whole caveman thing.

You really need to learn the definitions of terms before you throw them around as if you knew what you were talking about. Atheists are characterized by a lack of belief, not by any particular belief.

Quote:

The Bible says that man was created within the last 15,000 years so there would never have been a "Fred Flinstone" caveman type person.

Why not? There were no caves available when man appeared on the scene?

WMD

rhutchin · 11-24-2005, 03:44 AM

Quote:

rhutchin
Actually, I think it is the atheists who believe in the whole caveman thing. The Bible says that man was created within the last 15,000 years so

John A. Broussard
Would you give me the verse that states that man was created within the last 15,000 years? I've looked for it and can't find it, so I need your help.

Thank you.

There is no single verse in the Bible that tells us this. You have to do some more study on this. This is a basic path you can follow.

1. Genesis 1 established the time for the creation of Adam.
2. Genesis 5 provides a genealogy from Adam to Noah giving a framework for the years that this encompasses.
3. Genesis 11:10… picks up with Shem and Goes to Abraham.
4. Gen 25 gives us the age when Abraham died. From there, it is a matter of tracking the line of Abraham through Issac and Jacob.

This site

http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/frame/

…provides an argument for Adam having been created about 15,000 years ago.

You have to scroll down the left side. Under "Main Library," it is the article, "The Biblical Calendar of History."

rhutchin · 11-24-2005, 03:51 AM

Quote:

rhutchin
My claim is that the Bible is an historical document and it describes an event in the book of Joshua where the sun stooped moving in its normal path (from a point of perspective on earth) from east to west. Others (the Koran) may make different assertions of which I am not aware. I do not have the time to research everything (and you do not seem to be able to do so either). There are many possible views on this, even an atheist view, and we each come to a conclusion based on a limited amount of information to support our conclusions.

John A. Broussard
And we keep asking what happened on that day when the Bible says Joshua made the sun stand still. So far you've given us links that explain it by saying it just looked that way, the sun goes around the earth, and another claiming it had something to do with hailstorms.

How about YOU telling us what YOU think happened instead of giving us a large number of alternatives?

My explanation is quite simple. The bible is a collection of contradictions, some with a historical basis, many with none. I list Joshua's act as one example of the latter. If it is indeed a mythical event, then you're dependence on the bible as an infallible historical document is totally misplaced.

So let's get back to essentials.

The bible unequivocally states that Joshua made the sun stand still.

Did he or didn't he?

If he did, tell us what actually happened.

Thanks for reading my posts, for providing all those links and for, hopefully, explaining exactly what the bible is talking about in this instance.

As is common with historical texts, we are given a description of the events that occurred. Here it is again—

Quote:

Joshua 10
7 So Joshua ascended from Gilgal, he, and all the people of war with him, and all the mighty men of valour.
8 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.
9 Joshua therefore came unto them suddenly, and went up from Gilgal all night.
10 And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.
11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.
12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

rhutchin · 11-24-2005, 04:00 AM

Quote:

rhutchin
Actually, I think it is the atheists who believe in the whole caveman thing.

Wayne Delia
You really need to learn the definitions of terms before you throw them around as if you knew what you were talking about. Atheists are characterized by a lack of belief, not by any particular belief.

I think it would be correct to say -- Atheists are characterized by a lack of belief in God. Atheists have the strong belief that there is no God and they have a belief system built on this. From what I have observed, atheists have very strong beliefs arising from their lack of belief in God.

Quote:

rhutchin
The Bible says that man was created within the last 15,000 years so there would never have been a "Fred Flintstone" caveman type person.

Wayne Delia
Why not? There were no caves available when man appeared on the scene?

Yes, there were caves. I still maintain that, “there would never have been a "Fred Flintstone" caveman type person,�? cave or no cave.

JPD · 11-24-2005, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I think it would be correct to say -- Atheists are characterized by a lack of belief in God. Atheists have the strong belief that there is no God and they have a belief system built on this. From what I have observed, atheists have very strong beliefs arising from their lack of belief in God.

More that (speaking for myself) we don't concern ourselves with worrying about God but do concern ourselves with the social effects of belief in God. We also wonder how believers manage to accept their chosen text so freely when there are so many problems with it. Kind of a selective blindness.

JPD · 11-24-2005, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Yes, there were caves. I still maintain that, “there would never have been a "Fred Flintstone" caveman type person,�? cave or no cave.

People sat around a fire in a cave. I fail to see why any question arises over this.
What is it about the "Fred Flintstone caveman type person" that you cannot accept?
I mean, asides from the transport and the use of dinosaurs in construction (!)

John A. Broussard · 11-24-2005, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

As is common with historical texts, we are given a description of the events that occurred. Here it is again—

Thanks, but repeating the verses doesn't explain what happened.

Want to try again?

Did Joshua actually make the sun stand still?

How could he do that, since the sun wasn't moving in the first place?

Or are you claiming that, at that time, the sun actually did revolve around the earth?

The verses you quote in no way explain the phenomenom described in those verses.

Thank you.

John A. Broussard · 11-24-2005, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

There is no single verse in the Bible that tells us this. You have to do some more study on this. This is a basic path you can follow.

1. Genesis 1 established the time for the creation of Adam.
2. Genesis 5 provides a genealogy from Adam to Noah giving a framework for the years that this encompasses.
3. Genesis 11:10… picks up with Shem and Goes to Abraham.
4. Gen 25 gives us the age when Abraham died. From there, it is a matter of tracking the line of Abraham through Issac and Jacob.

This site

http://www.familyradio.com/graphical/literature/frame/

…provides an argument for Adam having been created about 15,000 years ago.

You have to scroll down the left side. Under "Main Library," it is the article, "The Biblical Calendar of History."

I didn't ask you for Internet sites claiming Adam was created about 15,000 years ago. I asked for evidence from the bible.

The verses you cite do NOT say that, as you admit. In fact, the good Bishop Ussher using the same reasoning came out with a 5,000 year figure.

What gives?

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