Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-03-2011, 12:12 AM

Why Did The Spirit Exorcise Jesus? Studies in Mark

Quote:

After coming up out of the Jordan River at His baptism, Mark says that the Holy Spirit “drove” Jesus out into the wilderness. The Greek word for “drove out” here (1.12) is εκβαλλει. This word is interesting because it is used a number of times in Mark’s Gospel. In fact, it is used a few verses later in 1.34. In 1.34 the text reads: “…Jesus healed many who had diseases and ‘drove out’ many demons…” 6.13 says, “They ‘drove out’ many demons…”

The thing that fascinates me is that the same word that is used of exorcisms in Mark’s Gospel, is the same word that is used of Jesus’ trip into the wilderness. In other words, Mark’s Gospel makes it appear as though the Holy Spirit is exorcising Jesus.

Doug Shaver · 10-04-2011, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The thing that fascinates me is that the same word that is used of exorcisms in Mark’s Gospel, is the same word that is used of Jesus’ trip into the wilderness. In other words, Mark’s Gospel makes it appear as though the Holy Spirit is exorcising Jesus.

That is only because English-speakers, at some point in their history, decided to use a special word for "drive out" when the things being driven out were demons. Greek-speakers apparently never thought they needed to make any such linguistic distinction.

mountainman · 10-04-2011, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The thing that fascinates me is that the same word that is used of exorcisms in Mark’s Gospel, is the same word that is used of Jesus’ trip into the wilderness. In other words, Mark’s Gospel makes it appear as though the Holy Spirit is exorcising Jesus.

That is only because English-speakers, at some point in their history, decided to use a special word for "drive out" when the things being driven out were demons. Greek-speakers apparently never thought they needed to make any such linguistic distinction.

That's an excellent point. In today's world when the things most driven out are automobiles it's a wonder we dont get a new translation of "Jesus was driven out into the wilderness" as "Jesus hired a limo to the wilderness".

Tangential to the OP is the understanding of what the pagan world thought of the word "demon" or "daemon", and I have often thought that the following reference from Ammianus in the later 4th century to be a good working guide. It seems to say that many of the Greek philosophers etc considered there to be some form of individual "Guardian Spirit" assigned to each person ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammianus Marcellinus

Source

3. For the theologians maintain that there are associated
with all men at their birth, but without interference with
the established course of destiny, certain divinities
of that sort, as directors of their conduct; but they
have been seen by only a very few, whom their
manifold merits have raised to eminence.

4. And this oracles and writers of distinction have shown;
among the latter is also the comic poet Menander,
in whom we read these two searii:

"A daemon is assigned to every man
At birth, to be the leader of his life".

5. Likewise from the immortal poems of Homer
we are given to understand that it was not the gods
of heaven that spoke with brave men, and stood by
them or aided them as they fought. but that guardians
spirits attended them; and through reliance upon
their special support, it is said, that Pythagoras,
Socrates, and Numa Pompilius became famous; also
the earlier Scipio, and (as some believe) Marius and
Octavianus, who first had the title of Augustus
conferred upon him, and Hermes Trismegistus,
Apollonius of Tyana, and Plotinus, who ventured to
discourse on this mystic theme, and to present
a profound discussion on the question by what
elements these spirits are linked with men's souls,
and taking them to their bosoms, as it were,
protect them (as long as possible) and give them
higher instruction, if they perceive that they are
pure and kept from the pollution of sin through
association with an immaculate body.

Ammianus appears to have overlooked the Greek Jesus Story.
Generally a very reliable historian is Ammianus the Greek.

aa5874 · 10-04-2011, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The thing that fascinates me is that the same word that is used of exorcisms in Mark’s Gospel, is the same word that is used of Jesus’ trip into the wilderness. In other words, Mark’s Gospel makes it appear as though the Holy Spirit is exorcising Jesus.

That is only because English-speakers, at some point in their history, decided to use a special word for "drive out" when the things being driven out were demons. Greek-speakers apparently never thought they needed to make any such linguistic distinction.

Do you actually have an ORIGINAL to know what was intended by the author?

You must remember we are dealing with copies of copiers of copies.

Sheshbazzar · 10-04-2011, 11:38 AM

שד שדי שדים

shad, shad'ee, shad'eem
daemon, 'Almighty', daemons.

שד singular _ a demon,

שדי personal _ my (our) demon.

שדים the plural _ demons. (any of the foreign 'gods' were by definition 'demons'.)

Gentiles all served and worshiped the shad'eem 'demons', by invocation of other names.
Anciently everyone was deemed to have a shad.

YHWH was the personal shad of the Hebrews (Jews), individually and collectively.
The shad'eem of the other nations were all who were designated 'by any other name', (other than the specific 'shibboleth' Name YHWH) being 'gods' that were only demons or devils. To invoke 'in any other 'name', was to invoke a demon.

Doug Shaver · 10-04-2011, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Do you actually have an ORIGINAL to know what was intended by the author?

I was commenting on the extant textual evidence. Whether the extant texts are original is beside the point of my observation.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-04-2011, 11:38 AM	#5
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	שד שדי שדים shad, shad'ee, shad'eem daemon, 'Almighty', daemons. שד singular _ a demon, שדי personal _ my (our) demon. שדים the plural _ demons. (any of the foreign 'gods' were by definition 'demons'.) Gentiles all served and worshiped the shad'eem 'demons', by invocation of other names. Anciently everyone was deemed to have a shad. YHWH was the personal shad of the Hebrews (Jews), individually and collectively. The shad'eem of the other nations were all who were designated 'by any other name', (other than the specific 'shibboleth' Name YHWH) being 'gods' that were only demons or devils. To invoke 'in any other 'name', was to invoke a demon.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.