Johnny Skeptic

It is my position that if a God exists, it is very unlikely that he intended for the Bible to be a major source of important information for mankind to have. That is because a large percentage of people during human history have not had access to it, in writing or verbally, and there have been frequent disputes and wars among people who did have access to it because many parts of it were written in ways that are easily misunderstood, and easily misinterpreted. If God does not exist, the writers are at fault. If God exists, he is at fault for not inspiring the writers to write a book that is easier to understand.

The Bible requires faith. If all religions are false, they have no choice but to require faith. Requiring faith is counterproductive if you want to convince people to believe that you exist, and if you want people to live like you want them to live. There is no substitute for a tangible, personal God who is always available for everyone to see and talk with.

If God really wanted the Bible to be promoted, he would promote it himself, tangibly, in person, to everyone in the world. There is no adequate substitute for a tangibly present human father, and there is no adequate substitute for a tangibly present heavenly father.

By the way, if you wish for people to believe that a book is your own work, it is best to deliver it yourself, tangibly, in person.

Larsguy47

The Bible purposely is a book that was meant to be difficult to understand so that certain things in the Bible would only be understood at later times by specific people. We see that clearly in Daniel 12...

3 “And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.

4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”

Then in Revelation we find this secret scroll and the one person who can break the seals and reveal what is in the scroll.

Rev 5:2 "..."Who is worthy to open the scroll and loose its seals?” 3 But neither in heaven nor upon earth nor underneath the earth was there a single one able to open the scroll or to look into it. 4 And I gave way to a great deal of weeping because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. 5 But one of the elders says to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

So basically, in the last days, "those with insight" (like eagles with precise vision) and in particular the Christ will have the ability to reveal these hidden secrets in the Bible. Thus one reason for making things so secret is to verify through these secrets, particularly the chronology prophecies who the true messiah is who is supposed to understand these things and have them revealed. The premise of confirming one is from God has always been a powerful tool, whether it was Joseph explaining inspired dreams by pharraoh (Apophis) or when Daniel explained the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar.

Rev 13:18 Here is where wisdom comes in: Let the one that has intelligence calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

See, even the prophecy about the identity of the 666-Beast in the context of the "last days" has to be explained by the messiah. This thus becomes, for those looking for him both an identification and a test.

Therefore, your premise for why God created such a secret book if he wanted everybody to understand it in itself is fundamentally incorrect. It's not necessarily a book for "everybody" as much for specific groups. Now yes, it has some general messages but some of it will only be completely understood by those it speaks mostly about, "God's chosen people", which in the last days are Christians and Jews, and among Christians, particularly those selected out of Christendom to be the "temple" tribe just like the tribe of Levi was selected out of the entire chosen nation.

So God deals with these groups more specifically on a small scale. But once Christ begins to rule again, it will affect the entire world.

Thus God does things on a small scale, under certain conditions to effect certain things, and then when that focal, specialized process is accomplished, it will affect all mankind.

We understand this to be the case because of the final judgment on JUDGMENT DAY. After "Armageddon" Christ's millennium will begin where he and 1,440,000 (10% natural Jews, 12,000 from each tribe--144,000) king-priests will rule. Satan is abyssed all this time but will be let loose after the 1000 years to test those living under Christ for this 1000 years. As some angels joined Satan in heaven, some under Christ's rule will rebel against him for a short time before being destroyed. But then after that, eternal life will be granted to the righteous who are not influenced by Satan during Judgment Day, the period that immediately follows Satan's death. After those already alive are judged, then all the people who ever lived who are in the memorial tombs will come back to life again, both the righteous and the unrighteous. But they will not be taught Christianity, they will be judged by the personal decisions they made during their own life, based upon their own sense of right and wrong, good intent or bad.

This brings us to your main issue as to why the Bible is so difficult to understand if God wanted everybody in the world to understand it. He doesn't. It's for a select people for a select purpose related directly to the first and second coming of the messiah. Once the messiah at the second coming arrives and fulfills the scripture then when his rule begins it will affect the whole world. And some who are chosen to be in the kingdom, won't be Christians. In fact, some Christians, who should have been in line for the kingdom will fail in the end and some non-Christians will take their place in the kingdom:

Luke 13:28 There is where [YOUR] weeping and the gnashing of [YOUR] teeth will be, when YOU see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside. 29 Furthermore, people will come from eastern parts and western, and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.

There's another parable that illustrates how the non-Christians will get into the kingdom as well. You might recall an illustration in the Bible where there's a wedding feast and the word goes out for everyone to arrive and lots of people beg off when it's time for the wedding feast. So the master, seeing all the seats were not filled by those unworthy, who valued other things over the wedding feast of the God's son, went out and just found anybody, many not invited originally to fill in those seats.

LUKE 14:16 [Jesus] said to him: “A certain man was spreading a grand evening meal, and he invited many. 17 And he sent his slave out at the hour of the evening meal to say to the invited ones, ‘Come, because things are now ready.’ 18 But they all in common started to beg off. The first said to him, ‘I bought a field and need to go out and see it; I ask you, Have me excused.’ 19 And another said, ‘I bought five yoke of cattle and am going to examine them; I ask you, Have me excused.’ 20 Still another said, ‘I just married a wife and for this reason I cannot come.’ 21 So the slave came up and reported these things to his master. Then the householder became wrathful and said to his slave, ‘Go out quickly into the broad ways and the lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’ 22 In time the slave said, ‘Master, what you ordered has been done, and yet there is room.’ 23 And the master said to the slave, ‘Go out into the roads and the fenced-in places, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say to YOU people, None of those men that were invited shall have a taste of my evening meal.’”

The above is about the failure of Christians or Jews as the primary invitees into the kingdom who fail in the end to respond to the invitation and how, instead, non-Christian and Jews will come in and fill the seats intended for them. If we extrapolate another parable of the "ten virgins" where only five out of the ten get into the kingdom, applied to Jews and Christians, then only half make it. The five wise virgins get there in time and the five foolish virgins don't, finding their seats taken by others. So essentially, it wouldn't be against the Bible's inference that only half the seats in the kingdom will be held by Jews and Christians, the rest by others who are not Jewish or Christian. (Matt 25:1-12)

Or finally the well known parable about the "Good Samaritan", where the priest and the rabbi, who know God's word prove unworthy, whereas the Samaritan, someone looked down on by the Jews is proved to be the more godlike and righteous. Little did the priest and rabbi know that the person they passed on the street, this sickly and beaten down person, was really the king, the messiah!

So absolutely, you don't have to be necessarily "Christian" or Jewish or understand the Bible to get into the kingdom. God made the standards so high and difficult that many don't make it. This leaves many seats in the kingdom open for ordinary righteous people who have never heard of Christ to get into the kingdom, whether they are in China or in the middle of the jungle in the Amazon. These are like "gems" on the planet. The most righteous people of heart on the planet.

So in effect, the less Christians and Jews that are not paying attention and don't make it, the more seats available for the best in other non-Judeo-Christian settings to get into the kingdom.

Now this works out in God's favor two ways based upon your double layer of accusation:

1) Why make the Bible so difficult if he intends everybody to benefit? He doesn't. It has a general message but much more that is focussed and secret. Therefore, the book is not a failure in being more easily understood by everyone. It is, however, an incredible success for the focal groups (i.e. Jews and Jehovah's witnesses primarily, then Christians in general).

2) But since the Bible is so hard to understand and a lot dealing with focal groups, God doesn't hold that against anyone who can't understand or are not in the focal groups. They are judged on an entirely different basis.

Thus some will be completel surprised they have bee chosen for the kingdom! And others thinking they had a shoe-in seat, will be cast outside. Many people are judged for their own general goodness, and not Bible knowledge, unless they were in the focal groups and should have understood.

Matt. 25:37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’ 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’

See? Those who are inadvertently kind to the messiah, like the Good Samaritan, not knowing who he is, will end up in the kingdom and it will be a surprise to them.

So that means YOU or anybody. Even if they don't understand the secret things and they are not part of that aspect of the kingdom, that doesn't mean God and Christ automatically rejects them. They may still be chosen for the kingdom based upon purely personal merit, even if they are not Christian.

BUT...those under the special covenants, do have a higher responsibility. That is, someone in the middle of the Amazon might be chosen, never having even seen a Bible. But for those who do have access to the Bible and who have the opportunity to get into the kingdom by direct knowledge of the Bible but who don't pursue it, will lose out when they respond correctly. For those who have more, more is required.

Remember the parable about the PRODIGAL SON? How the older brother doesn't go to the banquet for the young son? The father comes out and comforts him. Well there are some who even know the Bible will not understand it like those who are part of the secret banquet for the prodigal son. They are not rejected by God, but they still can't access the secret things understood by those inside the private banquet. Meaning, that some groups of Christians will remain outside, not fully understanding, but will not be rejected.

So it's possible, even if you are Christian, and you reject or resent the messiah, which the older brother does, that's its still okay. So rejecting the actual messiah actually isn't a death sentence, necessarily. But there's a big difference between people who are desperately trying to understand and can't and can't figure out the details, than someone who just decides the Bible is a book of myths and lies and they've decided they needn't be bothered. That's a big difference. People who are trying to understand and want to but can't, and those openly disbelieving and working hard to get others not to believe.

The "one with insight" is supposed to understand the meaning of the "666" so I'll post that in a separate thread. Watch for it.

LG47

Nazaroo

Actually, you are asking the wrong question if you are considering even hypothetically the case that God spoke through written documents.


You should rather ask,

"Why is God only speaking to SOME people through written documents, while He apparently spoke in a loud voice and with great physical signs and dramatic events to other more priviledged people?"

or more simply,

"Why doesn't God speak to ME personally?"

Although you may not like the potential answer that could imply.

Larsguy47

Good question and very true. But perhaps even more pertinent is that different people may actually answer that differently.

To your intuitive question, though, I'll just add this qualification: the aspect of WHEN: Thus your question could be: "Why hasn't God spoken to ME personally, yet?"

And to that, one might add, if God is trying to speak to us indirectly first through the Bible and we don't like that or don't listen, then WhyITH would he contact us on a more personal basis? First things first....

LG47

Amedeo

Why do you think that the Bible is hard to understand? Let's stick to realities. Read, for example, the Book of Genesis, the most important one in the whole Bible. The information it provides is the simplest one in the world. The Bible does NOT reveal ANYTHING beyond what the people of the neolithic Agricultural/Metallurgical world knew. It presents the teachings of priests/rabbi to children, so that the events of the world and of human history are framed in myth: This or that God is responsible for all the happening. Its mythology is as easy to understand as any other mythology of the Gentiles simultaneous with and prior to the Bible narrators (and eventual writers).

Perhaps you are alluding to the difficulties that some thinking man have in trying to understand myths AS IF they were literal truths. How did the Elohim make the world and its things appear by just saying magic words (the names of things)? How did Yahweh construct in or order the dark chaos so that the world emerged? Hod did He extract a female out of a male? No, he was not a midwife, since Adam was not generating yet. He used a rib rather than dust -- like the carving of a bone instead of the moulding of clay. Yah was an artisan rather than a magician, like the Elohim, who made Man in their own imade, a male and a female. But now, the rabbinical theology which admits of a single god, EL [alias Allah for the future Muslims] create a further understanding problem for you:How come that they (as stated in the Bible text) are ONE?. Was El a hermaphrodite? Blasphemy, blasphemy! (If you question orthodoxy, you become a heretic and a sinner, even if you don't believe in the whole infantile mythology.)

You should not say, "If God exists..." Look at all the historical gods. Look at the gods of the Genesis:1 and Genesis:2, and then start wondering whether the gods exist; whether some gods were contractual {covenant} gods who assumed the duty of providing for and protecting a people; whether gods are supposed to enlighten men, to make revelations to the ignorant human lot; whether gods came on earth to save man from the consenquences of their sins; whether... Then just look at what the alleged gods have really achieved. There is a pragmatic test for their existence or non- existence, in addition to the reduction of the god-concepts to absurdity [by shown the inner contradiction of the gods] and to the arguments against the existence of any god. [The god of Abraham has constantly broken the contract, as the history of the Israelites/Jews shows, but the Jews have forgotten the contract and keep their own part of the contract, namely circumcision. Incidentally, the practice of circumcision*** and, amongst other peoples, of religious castration, says more about the Judaic religion that is written down in the Bible. You see, most of the Bible relates to Yahweh, not to the El of the Galileans, or the Canaanite religion of Araboid provenance. The Judeans stick to the contract with a God, El, which they gave up since Moses. But this is their problem, not a historian's problem.) Atheologians expose the "divine farces", the mythologies of pre-rational men.
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Johnny Skeptic

Many people quite rightly question God's existence, motives, agenda, and his right to rule the universe. Either these issues are best settled by ancient records that were written by human proxies, or by God being available to discuss them himself, tangibly, in person. I believe that the latter would be more helpful to humanity than the former. If a God exists, and he wants people to make decisions that he approves of, surely the best decisions are the best informed decisions. Regarding the issue of slavery, surely mankind would have been much better off if God had showed up in person to discuss the issue in front of everyone in the world.

Regarding the events at the tomb, and the two different accounts of the death of Judas, surely those issues are not easy to understand, but they could have been easier to understand if they had been written by better writers. In my opinion, even people who God has chosen to reveal himself to would be much better served if he were always available, tangibly, in person.

If God only wishes to reveal himself to certain groups of people, how is an individual person supposed to know if he is a member of one of those groups?

What criteria does God use to decide which people he reveals himself to? Without having such information, a person does not have enough information to properly assess God's character. It is my position that the Bible does not even come close to reasonably proving that God has good character.

2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish. That includes everyone, doesn't it?

Even if God chose to reveal himself to everyone, how would he be able to justify his supposed right to rule the universe? Such a choice on this part is entirely arbitrary. Any dictatorial tyrant who has enough power is able to bully people around, but that does not make it right.

I would like to ask Christians who have quoted the Bible what evidence they have that the Bible is inerrant?

xaxxat

Uh, because I'm not schizophrenic?

:wave:

Larsguy47

[QUOTE=Amedeo;4426530]

Regarding CIRCUMCISION. When Biblical history is applied it means nothing since Noah likely would have circumcized himself and his children and thus the origin of that practice having a common origin. Noah predates everybody, right?

Still, I wonder if there is anything left from pre-Flood times? There is a reference of some cities being built by Cain. Still, they are likely not any more significant than many others and likely completely destroyed in the flood.

Oh well....

LG47

Toto

BCH is not based on the assumption that the Bible is God's attempt to communicate with man, so I think that this might do better in GRD.

naturalist.atheist

Your right!

Why didn't I think of that?

But it begs several other questions.

Why hasn't Zeus spoken to me yet?
Why hasn't Thor spoken to me yet?
Why hasn't Zarathustra spoken to me yet?

Why hasn't my agent called with that million dollar deal?

Why hasn't the lottery board called to tell me I have won?

Why do people ask these silly questions?

You are right again!

If Vishnu is speaking to us through the Vedas then why are we not listening?

Why aren't you listening?

Before you ask questions about why we are not bying your story about the supernatural perhaps you better explain why you are not buying the many other stories about the supernatural.

Or could it be because those stories have not reached you yet?