Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 10-20-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radcliffe Emerson
Ummm, I better not touch this one!

If only they said that more in W. Virginia (or Oklahoma)....

Why have we not heard from any Xians on this?

wildernesse · 10-20-2003, 05:57 PM

Hey, I'm a Christian! I said he could have married his neice! Lordy.

Anywho, are you really expecting a serious discussion about who Cain married? I doubt I'm the one for you, but I'll chat if you like. I tend to give unsatisfactory answers.

--tibac

Toto · 10-20-2003, 05:57 PM

Well, let's see what serious theists say about this question.

Catholics on Cain's wife

Quote:

In Genesis Chapter 4 the inhabitants of the earth are Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel. After Cain kills Abel and is banished from the garden, Cain fears anyone will kill him on sight. Who was there to kill him? Where did his wife come from?

Very good question. However, this gets into the discussion of: should we take the Bible literally, phrase by phrase or contextually. There are some genres in the Scriptures which are somewhat historical, and other stories which are myth. A Scripture professor once described a myth in the context of Scripture, "A lie that tells a truth."

In the stories of Genesis, we believe there are many stories which are myth, but reveal a deeper truth about Humankind. {snip moral lesson}

Regarding the details to your question, yes, there are some problems with the 4 people and where did Cain's wife come from. But these details are trivial compared to the deeper meaning of the story.

Daily Bible Study

Quote:

If Daily Bible Study had a "Top Ten Questions" list, this one would certainly be included: "If Adam and Eve were the only created humans, where did their son Cain get his wife?"

The question is asked quite often, by young and old, by people of many different church denominations. It also seems to be one of the favorite "gotcha" questions from unbelievers who enjoy challenging The Bible.

So, where did Cain's wife come from?

. . .
But where did Cain's wife come from? The Bible provides only one answer: Adam "had other sons and daughters" (Genesis 5:4).

Cain married one of his sisters.

While such a marriage would certainly be very wrong today (as God later decreed, see the Fact Finder below), the rules were quite different in the early days of humanity. It wasn't a matter of Cain making a "wrong" choice, since it was his only choice in order to be able to obey God's command for humanity to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28).

In those early times, the defects and disorders that could later possibly occur in children from such marriages, from recessive genes, would not have been as likely, since recessive genes would have had little time to develop. The children could actually have been much healthier than humans are today, as evidenced by the far greater life spans of the earliest humans (e.g. Genesis 5:1-32).

AIG thinks the question is funny and the answer is also funny

anti-Evolutionist apologetics

Quote:

Now we get to the heart of our lesson in verses 16-17, Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son; Enoch. There are times when we assume that the Bible says something when it really doesn't say it. For example, many people say that Cain found his wife in the land of Nod. But when you read these verses you find that it doesn't say that at all. Cain dwelt in the land of Nod, but it does not say he found his wife there. It may very well be that Cain was already married when he went to the land of Nod. Something else we assume is the time element involved. The truth of the matter is we don't know how much time is involved in the phrase in verse three of chapter four, "And in the process of time it came to pass." It could be just a few years - it could be a hundred years. The truth of the matter is, we don't know how old Cain and Abel were when these events took place. We do know that Seth was born shortly after Cain killed Abel. We do know that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born (Gen. 5:4). Verse five says, "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters": How many sons and daughters he begat no one knows. But during a 800-year period there must have been many. As we said before the word "knew" here in verse 17 does not refer to him getting acquainted with his wife by meeting her in the land of Nod. It refers to that which leads to conception of a baby. It could very well be that Cain was already married when the events took place in Genesis 4 and that his wife traveled with him to the land of Nod. In fact, Guy N. Woods says that the phrase "'the land of Nod' simply means a place or area of wandering and is a reference to the general direction which characterized Cain when he was driven out as a fugitive and wanderer on the face of the earth." The only logical conclusion we can come to in the face of what the Bible does tell us, is that Cain's wife was one of his sisters or neices. Thus, Cain's wife came from among Adam's children or grandchildren. I know we shrink from the idea today of such close marriages, but we should ever remember that everyone living today came from the original created human beings - Adam and Eve.

Bible Answer Man

So we see that Bible believers do not shrink from the obvious answer that Cain must have married his sister, and they don't even think that it is a "difficulty" at all. Must be why no one has bothered to answer here.

offa · 10-20-2003, 06:29 PM

We need a definition for "wife" and we get one in Jubilees.

JUB 03:06 This one will be called my wife because she was
taken from her husband."

A "wife" has a previous spouse called "her husband."

When Cain slew Abel he "took" a "wife."

JUB 04:09 Cain took his sister, 'Awan, as a wife,

Biff the unclean · 10-20-2003, 07:37 PM

Hmmmm?

Roman Catholic position
Regarding the details to your question, yes, there are some problems with the 4 people and where did Cain's wife come from. But these details are trivial compared to the deeper meaning of the story.

Sarah Jane Smith position
SJS: But Doctor, how on Earth did the Darlecks get up six flights of stairs?
Dr Who: I'll explain that later. But first we have more pressing business...

mark9950 · 10-20-2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

The bible is the inerrant word of God though. And it makes no mention of other civilizations when Cain gets married.

The Bible Torah was written by the hebrews for the hebrews and no one else.

As for everyone else to these people they were irrelevant.

Sorry the Christian Bible is very errant,To this day the modern day jews believe that Jesus is/was the false prophet and they had the Torah and judaism is their religion.Christianity is a false religion based on a false prophet called Jesus who died for being a criminal not for a sin.

Jesus was a man not a god(he wanted to be a god) but he could not pull that off to the sanhedrin.he was charged and convicted of blasphemy and was sentenced to death.

Radcliffe Emerson · 10-21-2003, 11:49 AM

I was being sarcastic, sorry. I agree with you on everything except Jesus. I don't think Jesus existed. I think Paul invented him and became the world's first travelling evangelist, mooching off of people he got to follow him so he wouldn't have to work for a living.
Much like evangelists today.

I don't believe there is hardly any historical fact to anything in the bible. There's not much support for anything in it, and both "testaments" were just written by men over the years, and even those were voted on by the Xtian side for what should be put in and what shouldn't.
The earliest followers of the alleged Jesus were declared heretics. They did not believe in eternal damnation, nor did they even believe Christians were chosen above all others.
They didn't teach the virgin birth, resurrection, miracles, anything miraculous.
Yet, most of those groups were historically the closest thing to their supposed source, the earliest groups. How could the earliest groups of followers who would have known more of their source than anyone, be declared heretical, unless it's all made up and the churches wanted uniformity and to keep people in line by attempting to put the fear of an angry God into them?

It's all hooey.

Radcliffe Emerson · 10-21-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Sarah Jane Smith position
SJS: But Doctor, how on Earth did the Darlecks get up six flights of stairs?
Dr Who: I'll explain that later. But first we have more pressing business...

And of course, Tom Baker's Doctor saying to the Daleks:
"If you're the master race, follow me up these flights of stairs!"

Sorry about that, I'll stay on topic from this point.

Doctor X · 10-21-2003, 03:58 PM

Ralph . . . er . . . sorry . . . Radcliff:

Actually, your observation on the Daleks are in a way on topic.

Yes . . . the most dangerous, destructive, and adjectived force in the Known Universe . . . which . . . for some reason . . . can be defeated by cold water . . . cannot climb stairs . . . are immobilized by placing a coat over their single "eye"--"I CANNOT SEE! I CANNOT SEE!"--are slower than your basic slasher-film villian, and are masters of surprise: "EXTERMINATE!! EXTERMINATE!!"

Well . . . limited by BBC budget . . . and imagination. That is not the point of the Dr. Who stories. So, fans are expected to have a "willing suspension of disbelief"--probably supplemented by drinking the bong water--and just accept it for the sake of the story.

Thus, the writers did not care enough to "reconcile" the problem of "who is Mrs. Cain?" I recall, off all people, a black evangelist--I was channel flipping--stating he "knew about the lost years of Jesus!"--his youth and teen years.

I paused for the revelation.

He gathered everyone "close" and said, "none of your business!" He explained that the writers of the gospels did not care about it!

In a way he was correct--coming up with a "youth" did not seem important to the Synoptic writers . . . though it would for later writers.

Thus, for whatever reason, the writers did not care about this problem. Given the metaphorical nature of the names of the characters, I wonder if the authors expected anyone to take it literally.

--J.D.

HerodionRomulus · 10-22-2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

Kosh? Kosh Naranek?

Who are you?
What do you want?

:notworthy

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10-20-2003, 05:57 PM	#12
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	Hey, I'm a Christian! I said he could have married his neice! Lordy. Anywho, are you really expecting a serious discussion about who Cain married? I doubt I'm the one for you, but I'll chat if you like. I tend to give unsatisfactory answers. --tibac

10-20-2003, 06:29 PM	#14
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	We need a definition for "wife" and we get one in Jubilees. JUB 03:06 This one will be called my wife because she was taken from her husband." A "wife" has a previous spouse called "her husband." When Cain slew Abel he "took" a "wife." JUB 04:09 Cain took his sister, 'Awan, as a wife,

10-20-2003, 07:37 PM	#15
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Hmmmm? Roman Catholic position Regarding the details to your question, yes, there are some problems with the 4 people and where did Cain's wife come from. But these details are trivial compared to the deeper meaning of the story. Sarah Jane Smith position SJS: But Doctor, how on Earth did the Darlecks get up six flights of stairs? Dr Who: I'll explain that later. But first we have more pressing business...

10-21-2003, 11:49 AM	#17
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I was being sarcastic, sorry. I agree with you on everything except Jesus. I don't think Jesus existed. I think Paul invented him and became the world's first travelling evangelist, mooching off of people he got to follow him so he wouldn't have to work for a living. Much like evangelists today. I don't believe there is hardly any historical fact to anything in the bible. There's not much support for anything in it, and both "testaments" were just written by men over the years, and even those were voted on by the Xtian side for what should be put in and what shouldn't. The earliest followers of the alleged Jesus were declared heretics. They did not believe in eternal damnation, nor did they even believe Christians were chosen above all others. They didn't teach the virgin birth, resurrection, miracles, anything miraculous. Yet, most of those groups were historically the closest thing to their supposed source, the earliest groups. How could the earliest groups of followers who would have known more of their source than anyone, be declared heretical, unless it's all made up and the churches wanted uniformity and to keep people in line by attempting to put the fear of an angry God into them? It's all hooey.

10-21-2003, 03:58 PM	#19
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	*Ralph* . . . er . . . sorry . . . Radcliff: Actually, your observation on the Daleks are in a way on topic. Yes . . . the most dangerous, destructive, and adjectived force in the Known Universe . . . which . . . for some reason . . . can be defeated by cold water . . . cannot climb stairs . . . are immobilized by placing a coat over their single "eye"--"I CANNOT SEE! I CANNOT SEE!"--are slower than your basic slasher-film villian, and are masters of surprise: "EXTERMINATE!! EXTERMINATE!!" Well . . . limited by BBC budget . . . and imagination. That is not the point of the Dr. Who stories. So, fans are expected to have a "willing suspension of disbelief"--probably supplemented by drinking the bong water--and just accept it for the sake of the story. Thus, the writers did not care enough to "reconcile" the problem of "who is Mrs. Cain?" I recall, off all people, a black evangelist--I was channel flipping--stating he "knew about the lost years of Jesus!"--his youth and teen years. I paused for the revelation. He gathered everyone "close" and said, "none of your business!" He explained that the writers of the gospels did not care about it! In a way he was correct--coming up with a "youth" did not seem important to the Synoptic writers . . . though it would for later writers. Thus, for whatever reason, the writers did not care about this problem. Given the metaphorical nature of the names of the characters, I wonder if the authors expected anyone to take it literally. --J.D.

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