spin

Another joyous reflection of the non-Aramaic source of the nt:

Let's return to the passage which talks about "the Boanerges, that is the sons of thunder". The Aramaic of the Peshitta has, BNY RG$Y ("sons of rage"), D'YTWHY ("that is") BNY R`M' ("sons of thunder"). You'll note that the original expression didn't mean "sons of thunder", but needs an explanation also in Aramaic, which is odd, as the text according to judge was translated out of Aramaic! So, why not simply say, "sons of rage" and not mimic the Greek? The text was translated from Greek, that's why.


spin

judge

Sorry Spin, another blunder. As you have previously admitted your Aramaic is pretty poor you really should do some more study.
The original expression could neam either "sons of thunder " or "sons of rage" in Aramaic. So the Aramaic indicates that it is sons of thunder and not sons of rage.

judge

Thanks Andrew, why not give a "rock solid" example or indicate which example is "rock solid", then we can deal with that.

judge

Spin it would be more professional if you could provide some evidence from time to time. Can you provide some evidence that first century palestinian hebrew language included the vowel sound and that first century palestinian aramaic did not include the vowel sound.
If you cannot provide this then I'm not sure your assertion is worth much.

ichabod crane

Hi Judge! I don't mind your arguing for the priority of the Peshitta, although I don't agree with you, but can you stop making these statements which are patently false? The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches all believe that the NT was originally Greek. It is not a Protestant invention. Why did Jerome translate the Vulgate from the Greek, if he did not think that was the original language? Was Jerome a Protestant? Was Erasmus a Protestant?

judge

Point taken WRT to Jeromes tranalation.
And of course the Eastern Orthodox churches.
I don't think in the Catholic tradition we find the same insistance and narrowmindedness on it that we find in protestant churches today.

I suppose in some sense both Protestantism and the Orhtodox Churches are sub sets of the Roman Church anyway.

spin

Sadly as you neither know Aramaic nor possess the requisite knowledge of Hebrew or linguistics, I don't feel you are in any position to comment. You wouldn't know a blunder in this field if you fell over one.

As the text itself proves you wrong, you don't need a response, do you?


spin

judge

Sorry Spin but you are still in error. Regnesh in Aramaic can mean either rage or it can mean thunder. It's particular use may have varied from locality to locality.
Thus anyone reading it may not know whether regnesh was meant to mean rage or thunder, thus an explanation is provided.
Your Aramaic is not up to it.

So again we have your claim but no evidence to back it up.

spin

I understand your lack of certainty, given your lack of expertise.

The best way to understand the pronunciation of an ancient language is through its transliteration into other languages. The things that get transliterated are names, though the transliteration process is quite an arbitrary one depending on the ability of the hearer and the resources available in the target language, eg Greek doesn't have a SHIN sound so transliterators substitute a sigma. All this means that one needs a relatively large corpus to improve the statistical probability of reflecting original sounds. Such a corpus is the onomasticon found in the Hebrew bible as transliterated in the LXX and other Greek versions.

Think of all those names like Abiathar, Abraham, Abijah, Abigail, etc. They usually end up Aviathar, Avraham, in modern Hebrew. A waw is transliterated as upsilon, omicron-upsilon, or omega (when it represents a long vowel). Consider though the name Havilah, which should obviously be pronounced hawila from the Hebrew HWYL', is transliterated into Greek as euila, Havoth-Jair, hawot-jair, is transliterated into Greek as auwt iair, etc.

All you need is the linguistic training. It's all there plainly in the sources to be perceived.


spin

spin

I tell you what, to save all this, just show me your ancient evidence, as the explanation in Mk 3:17 seems to disagree with you. Until you can, you will be perceived as, umm, swimming against the current, flying in the face of the facts.


spin