Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 03-18-2004, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endymion83
So, some Christians have different beliefs that you. And what is it that makes your version of Christianity more right than thiers?

Let's look at what you originally said:

Ive read on several websites that Christianity originally preached that everyone would be saved.

Read the Gospels. Jesus didn't preach that everyone would be saved. "...that whosoever believe in me shall not perish...." How does that indicate that everyone would be saved? Neither Jesus nor Paul taught that everyone would be saved. In Galatians, an earlier text that John, Paul said:

6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Nope, Paul's not saying that everyone would be saved.

And in Acts 2:21, Peter is reported to have said, in a sermon to a crowd after the Pentecostal experience:

"And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. "

So it may be true that some early Christians preached that everyone would be saved, but it sure doesn't appear that Christianity preached that.

Hell was introduced when the Romans made Christianity thier official religion.

Again, Jesus went on quite a bit about Hell. You can look that up by yourself. There are some that argue over what "hell" really means, but if the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is any indication, Jesus (or whoever wrote that particular Gospel) pictured it much like the currently popular version that you say wasn't introduced until the Romans made Xianity their religion.

So it may be that Hell became more "promoted" after Constantine, but I definitely don't think Hell wasn't introduced before Constantine.

----

Maybe you'd do better not getting your ideas about religion from websites, or if you do try independently verifying them.

Mageth · 03-18-2004, 04:45 PM

BTW, as the proverbial nail in the coffin of both of those claims about early Christianity (teaching everyone would be saved and not "introducing" Hell) , read the words of Irenaeus, a prominent figure in the Early Church (2nd Century):

Quote:

"The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send 'spiritual wickednesses,' and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory."

Irenaeus,Against Heresies,1,10,10(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:330

Endymion83 · 03-18-2004, 05:44 PM

Then it would appear I was decieved by http://www.tentmaker.org/

Although the people running that site do seem sincere about there beliefs, even if they are unfounded.

funinspace · 03-19-2004, 08:45 AM

Quote:

So, some Christians have different beliefs that you. And what is it that makes your version of Christianity more right than thiers?

Just because I am of the opinion, that today's resultant orthodox Xianity was well on it's way to being formalized in the 3rd Century, doesn't mean that I buy into it. I don't know of many Xian apologists, of any stripe, that would sarcastically call Paul as "Darth Paul" to allude towards a less than Godly inspired evangelism on his part. I was simply trying to point out that people say lots of things, but there are reasonable facts out there, and then there are things without any substance backing them. I do agree that there was a significant shift in how death is related from the Hebrew Bible to the NT. Personally I don't buy into a divinely inspired NT, where God held a bunch of peoples hands as some perfect text was being collated. Mageth, was generous enough to dig out an actual early Xianity apologist writing from Irenaeus to show you what out there. I just didn't have allot of time to find actual text references. I had assumed you knew enough of NT texts to recognize that if we have actual near complete copies of NT texts from the 3rd century then that would invalidate the web page you referenced. If you want to read more there is a tremendous body of text becoming available online. Here is one site.
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/read...ocalindex.html

Again, I am also not endorsing the above sites point of view, they are simple a good source for some historical texts. The texts are interesting for gaining insight to what was going on in the Xian movement in the first few centuries, but does little to show how it all started. I figure most of us are here to learn more, and I just wanted to point out a weed in the garden of knowledge. Only a few intend to deceive.

DK

funinspace · 03-19-2004, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Hell was not invented in the NT but the view of it and its purpose changed from Moses and the OT times to when JC and Christianity started (gospels written) . The view of Hell(lake of fire and agony) was not the original OT concept.. Other Factors(cultures) are involved..
See my Point

and again .. find in the OT any reference to a Leader of Demons or runaway angels.. Please.

If you Can't then Fraud comes to mind.

Oh, this was towards me... I never argued otherwise, see my other reply. It seams it must be me, since several read in more into what I said, than what I intended. Time for more caveats I guess, should have said "death's shifting paradigm" somewhere.

DK

redzrx · 03-19-2004, 09:35 AM

It was not towards you .. It is a statement based on what is said in terms of Satan/Devil description from OT to NT

Thats it.. No shot intended

Mario

03-19-2004, 09:35 AM	#66
redzrx Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ontario Posts: 87	funinspace It was not towards you .. It is a statement based on what is said in terms of Satan/Devil description from OT to NT Thats it.. No shot intended Mario

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03-18-2004, 05:44 PM	#63
Endymion83 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Illinois, USA Posts: 174	Then it would appear I was decieved by http://www.tentmaker.org/ Although the people running that site do seem sincere about there beliefs, even if they are unfounded.

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