Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xaxxat · 01-09-2008, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

The 'disciples' strike me as the Greek Chrorus. Their function was to stand there and be amazed over and over at their boss' magic tricks. You'd think after a while they start to catch on that he could do this stuff but...no. They are always surprised or amazed.

They were very simple folk, credulous and superstitious, who were bound to this man by a love that they could not understand.

If he wanted them to have a better undersranding, why didn't he just poof it into them?

storytime · 01-09-2008, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

He tried to communicate with people on their own level. He was frequently dissatisfied with the disciples' low level of comprehension.

Agreed. Jesus seemed to be frustrated at the ignorance of his disciples. Ignorance is also seen in how Nichodemus (a Levite who was also trained under Pharisee priests) did not comprehend what it meant when Jesus said "ye must be born again".

storytime · 01-09-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

He tried to communicate with people on their own level. He was frequently dissatisfied with the disciples' low level of comprehension.

The 'disciples' strike me as the Greek Chrorus. Their function was to stand there and be amazed over and over at their boss' magic tricks. You'd think after a while they start to catch on that he could do this stuff but...no. They are always surprised or amazed.

So what could have been the reason for those disciples leaving their regular lifestyle and joining Jesus ministry? Did they recognize Jesus as a learned teacher[rabbi]? What about the Pharisees? Did the Pharisees also at the first, acknowledge the authority of Jesus as a rabbi and later begin to understand the threat that Jesus posed to their position and name at Jerusalem?

Pay attention to the name "Pharisee" for it is the identity, or in this case the identity of that body called anti-Christ as the story bears out.

The sons of Jacob are listed in 12 names, none of which is called "Pharisees". There is a predistined plan established in the Old Testament story when the tribes of Israel were given their positioning in their nation under Moses. Which tribe and tribal name was called the elect of God, his chosen people? It is this tribe "anointed" not to ever be overturned["touch not mine anointed"]. Those who did touch, were commanded to be put to death. If the Pharisees knew the scriptures, did they understand judgment of themselves, in that the death penalty was their fate?

storytime · 01-09-2008, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

The 'disciples' strike me as the Greek Chrorus. Their function was to stand there and be amazed over and over at their boss' magic tricks. You'd think after a while they start to catch on that he could do this stuff but...no. They are always surprised or amazed.

They were very simple folk, credulous and superstitious, who were bound to this man by a love that they could not understand.

Or.. did these superstitious disciples see their awaited savior who would lead them to victory against the heavy burden of the Pharisees?

storytime · 01-09-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Taken from Matthew 13:10-12 KJV.

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

Does this present initiation rights to a group of students whose right it was to know the mysteries of the kingdom but all others were excluded from it?

Why would the 12 be special and not the other Jewish citizens? Does this show how the priesthood was formed and maybe in a conspiracy to overthrow the Pharisees?

Because this theme is borrowed from the Gospel of Mark, which takes the theme from the Jewish scriptures as well as Pauline teaching:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

Quote:

The Purpose of the Parables

Mark 4:
10 When he was alone, those who were around him along with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, 'To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; 12 in order that
"they may indeed look, but not perceive,
and may indeed listen, but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven."'

13 And he said to them, 'Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word.

This again contains parallels with the Pauline works, and in an interesting way. Not only does this passage reflect the same ideas that are found in the Pauline works, but it also quotes the same passage that is quoted in Romans. Paul also referred to the kingdom of God, and Jesus, as a mystery.

Colossians 1:
25 I became its servant according to God's commission that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations but has now been revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

There are many passages such as this one in the Pauline epistles that talk about secret revealed mysteries to a select group of people.

Mark 4:12 refers to Isaiah 6:9-10, which is also referenced by Paul in Romans 11.

Romans 11:
1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 'Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.' 4 But what is the divine reply to him? 'I have kept for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.' 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
'God gave them a sluggish spirit,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.'
9 And David says,
'Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling-block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and keep their backs for ever bent.'

Here both the Gospel of Mark and the works of Paul are in agreement, that Israel is condemned, but that a few select Jews, "the elect", were on the right track. Both Paul and Gospel of Mark here refer to Isaiah 6, which talks about destruction coming to those who do not understand.

Isaiah 6:
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?' And I said, 'Here am I; send me!' 9 And he said, 'Go and say to this people:
"Keep listening, but do not comprehend;
keep looking, but do not understand."
10 Make the mind of this people dull,
and stop their ears,
and shut their eyes,
so that they may not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and comprehend with their minds,
and turn and be healed.'
11 Then I said, 'How long, O Lord?' And he said:
'Until cities lie waste
without inhabitant,
and houses without people,
and the land is utterly desolate;

Ok, so the theme is borrowed from the gospel of Mark. I'm not concerned with how the bible books are presented in the layout positioning. It's (the KJV primarily) we are stuck with in challenging Christians to think. So far, they've had things pretty much interpreted their way. I think it's time to give them a little bit more to think about in regards to their imposing themselves into the story. I want them to think, to examine the KJV bible story for what they have evidently overlooked. "It's in the bible", and I want them to read it. I would like to see whatever scholar to provide some answers that should have been addressed to non Jewish people, and even Jews themselves.

"They may indeed look, but not perceive, and they may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven."

Would people without laws of Israel have needed forgiveness for transgressing laws they never had in the first place? To whom were the commandments of law given, to the world or to the sons of Jacob called Israel? Who were the "sinners"[transgressors] of law and who were always free from that religion and its laws?

storytime · 01-09-2008, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

They were very simple folk, credulous and superstitious, who were bound to this man by a love that they could not understand.

If he wanted them to have a better undersranding, why didn't he just poof it into them?

If you're conspiring to overthrow a government do you speak openly or in coded language so as to cover-up your purpose?

No Robots · 01-09-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Or.. did these superstitious disciples see their awaited savior who would lead them to victory against the heavy burden of the Pharisees?

They definitely did expect this of him, but it was part of their superstitious misreading of him.

Toto · 01-09-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

...
The 'disciples' strike me as the Greek Chrorus. Their function was to stand there and be amazed over and over at their boss' magic tricks. You'd think after a while they start to catch on that he could do this stuff but...no. They are always surprised or amazed.

So what could have been the reason for those disciples leaving their regular lifestyle and joining Jesus ministry? Did they recognize Jesus as a learned teacher[rabbi]? What about the Pharisees? Did the Pharisees also at the first, acknowledge the authority of Jesus as a rabbi and later begin to understand the threat that Jesus posed to their position and name at Jerusalem?

It's just part of the plot line.

Quote:

Pay attention to the name "Pharisee" for it is the identity, or in this case the identity of that body called anti-Christ as the story bears out.

Pharisees

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The word Pharisees comes from the Hebrew פרושים prushim from פרוש parush, meaning "separated", that is, one who is separated for a life of purity.

What conclusion do you draw from that?

Quote:

The sons of Jacob are listed in 12 names, none of which is called "Pharisees". There is a predistined plan established in the Old Testament story when the tribes of Israel were given their positioning in their nation under Moses. Which tribe and tribal name was called the elect of God, his chosen people? It is this tribe "anointed" not to ever be overturned["touch not mine anointed"]. Those who did touch, were commanded to be put to death. If the Pharisees knew the scriptures, did they understand judgment of themselves, in that the death penalty was their fate?

This is just bizarre. In the first century, the Jewish 12 tribes were part of history and a religious background, but only two remained even in theory. Pharisees were not a tribe, and did not die out - they evolved into rabbinical Judaism. The picture of the "Pharisees" in the gospels casts them in the role of the villain for the theological purposes of the gospel writers, but we have no reason to think that is historically true. (Contrast the differing portrait of Gamaliel in Acts.)

Could you explain what you mean here?

xaxxat · 01-09-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

If he wanted them to have a better undersranding, why didn't he just poof it into them?

If you're conspiring to overthrow a government do you speak openly or in coded language so as to cover-up your purpose?

Must have been a very good code as his own people couldn't decifer it...

Malachi151 · 01-09-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Ok, so the theme is borrowed from the gospel of Mark. I'm not concerned with how the bible books are presented in the layout positioning. It's (the KJV primarily) we are stuck with in challenging Christians to think. So far, they've had things pretty much interpreted their way. I think it's time to give them a little bit more to think about in regards to their imposing themselves into the story. I want them to think, to examine the KJV bible story for what they have evidently overlooked. "It's in the bible", and I want them to read it. I would like to see whatever scholar to provide some answers that should have been addressed to non Jewish people, and even Jews themselves.

"They may indeed look, but not perceive, and they may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven."

Would people without laws of Israel have needed forgiveness for transgressing laws they never had in the first place? To whom were the commandments of law given, to the world or to the sons of Jacob called Israel? Who were the "sinners"[transgressors] of law and who were always free from that religion and its laws?

You are trying to use logic and reason to explain something that has nothing to do with logic and reason.

Its like me asking why it is that Lewis Carroll said that a blue pill makes you smaller in Alice in Wonderland.

Its just as stupid as people trying to argue logically about Adam and Eve to show that the story is illogical.

Of course the story is illogical, it was written by nomadic barbarians almost 3,000 years ago, not modern computer scientists.

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