Iskander

I have not insulted any posters.


Are you looking for an excuse?


I come here to better understand the arguments

GakuseiDon

This is what he claims:

It is frequently claimed, even by experts in the field, that no Jews expected their messiah to be killed, that all of them expected a militarily triumphant übermensch. And therefore Christianity went totally off-book when it came up with the idea that their "failed" messiah was the "real" messiah. But this is actually demonstrably false. Some Jews did expect a dying messiah.

I would need to see the claims by experts in the field. I doubt that any expert would have expressed their views in such an un-nuanced fashion.

Surely you've read comments by experts on the topic, Toto. The only views I've read expressed was the claim that Jews varied in their beliefs about the Messiah -- whether he would be a military leader, or whether he would be a priestly leader, or whether there would be both. Have you ever read any expert claiming "all the Jews expected a military triumphant übermensch" in such an un-nuanced fashion?

There is nothing wrong with the article itself mind you, I'm just wondering who are the ones making these frequent claims? I think Carrier is conflating apologetic arguments with arguments by "experts in the field", pandering to those readers who are on the same wave-length. As this seems to be standard operating practice among some writers, perhaps I'm overly sensitive to this writing technique.

Toto

I think you are reading too much into an obviously slightly flippant comment on a blog. As Carrier notes in the discussion after his post "In print work I always cite and discuss all relevant evidence and scholarship."

You are, of course, free to ask a question on that blog. I hope that you do better than James McGrath, or that you have a better excuse than "antihistamines befuddled my brain."

andrewcriddle

There is an online version of 11Q13

It seems to involve a dying messiah in only a rather technical sense.

Andrew Criddle

ETA

Checking in other sources. In the passage the part reading "After the sixty-two weeks, an Anointed shall be cut off" seems very questionable. Possibly it should be from the previous verse in Daniel ie Up until an Anointed One a prince seven weeks.

archibald

Isn't there a decent 'prophecy' about a Messiah who meets an early death in Daniel?

Carrier references this also.

archibald

I go along with the whole quote. Very reasonable.

I am not an expert on Carrier (yet), and I may share some of GDon's reservations, but overall, I think it's good to see an ancient historian delving.

I think I may buy the new book when it comes out. I only hope it is cheaper than 'Not the Impossible Faith'

Bingo the Clown-O

Excellent point.

Just had to say so.

MCalavera

Why must every amateur think they're more qualified than scholars to notice things supposedly missed by the experts? :huh:

GakuseiDon

Anyone who knows even a little about the topic understands that the Jews had varying ideas about the Messiah, including the idea of a priestly one. Carrier starts that blog post with a strawman. Flippant statement or otherwise, it is still a strawman.

Toto

GDon - you can tell him that on his blog. (Just be careful of antihistamines.) Or wait for when he publishes this and footnotes the people he refers to.