Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

LAME: Your claiming zekey wrote the prophey before the fact which I happen to agree with.

Then you understand why the two situations are not the same.
Therefore your original objection (i.e., that the logic is the same as the 164 BCE dating for Daniel) is groundless.

Checkmate! :rolling:

The two situations are the same, they were both written before the fact. The DSS, the copious amounts of Daniel, the acceptance of Daniel as cannon, the mention of Daniel in other texts indicates that it was written before the fact. Try again

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Tyre was often under the nominal suzerainty of some other empire. That doesn't help you, though. Tyre retained a large degree of its independence, its wealth, its trade routes, and its prestige.

Morever, many of these princes were actually Tyrian royal family members who were installed and paid annual fees (tribute) to the empire, and little else.

The prophecy says the city would be DESTROYED and NEVER FOUND AGAIN, remember? Do you know what those words mean? Its' more than just the streets and buildings (which you fundies obsessed about; the skeptics only responded to your own obsessions). No, it means that the city of Tyre was going to be WIPED OFF THE MAP.

Instead, it was the Singapore (or the Hong Kong) of the ancient near east. A major metropolis that was making money hand over fist.

Result? PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

LAME: Your supposed to argue that zekey wrote the prophecy after the fact,

I'm "supposed to"? Says who, you?
You can't even get your own arguments striaght, and you want to tell me what I'm supposed to be arguing?

BWAHAHAHAHA

That is not my argument, poptart.

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

So? The bible contradicts itself. I have no problem admitting that. You're the only one who insists that it can't have any contradictions.

Umm, what is the contradiction? The only contradiction exists in the imagination of the minimalist/revisionist who is obsessed with only the physical walls and streets of Tyre.

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 10:00 AM

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Ships are the most important item needed for a sea battle.

Who says this was a sea battle?

Quote:

Ezekiel does not even hint at such items when listing the war items of Nebby.

So? Ezekiel wasn't a military correspondent. He also didn't list supply caravans. Does that mean that Nebuchadnezzar didn't have any?

Quote:

Also listed is "much people" and "companies" there is no mention of many nations being with Neby. The destruction of Jerusalem was before the war against Tyre by Babylon. In Jeremiah the army of Babylon is not a multi-national force. It is referred to as Nebby's army, Babylon's army, and the Chaldean army. In other words the army of Babylon.

Which is composed of elements from all across the broad empire, which included Assyrians, Chaldeans, Scythians, Edomites, etc.

WVIncagold · 02-13-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

I wonder if the wisdom of sugarhitman an arnoldo can give some specific numbers. nothing much but considering their claim both have talked and subscribe to a 13 year siege, i am more the capable of taking their agreed numbers and develop a quartermaster report needed to support such a siege. The siege they both claim was on mainland. I accept their delusion. if there was old Tyre on the mainland as they claim then the siege took place. Just trying to gain some significant math to either show that a 13 YEAR SIEGE WAS POSSIBLE. Math does not lie guys. Could Nebby from your perspective support a 13 year military siege? All i need is the number of the population or armed men on mainland Tyre. since you say it exists these numbers should be a known. Simple military math on numbers will give us the number required to maintain the siege you both say happened. these numbers have fluctuated but i will pull the oldest possible on record. I can also figure the number of siege engines required in order to destroy a defensive city to rubble. Unless your afraid of math entering into a discussion to help prove or disprove your argument. both of your knowledge of military actions is not only unschooled and considerably ignorant of the very simple military maneuvers.

Umm, any thoughts on how long Nebby's siege on Jerusalem happened, or was that a non-event?

its your assertion not mine. you supply the numbers and i will be happy to perform the math work. You assert it happened so lets do the math to prove or disprove. i will use the numbers you provide. Whether it happened or not is irrelevant. All i need is the number of the garrison that supposedly defended. From that i can then preform the math logic that would of been presented to Nebby by his viziers and generals.

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

LAME: Your supposed to argue that zekey wrote the prophecy after the fact,

I'm "supposed to"? Says who, you?
You can't even get your own arguments striaght, and you want to tell me what I'm supposed to be arguing?

BWAHAHAHAHA

That is not my argument, poptart.

Ok so your argument is that zekey wrote the prophecy before the fact, brilliant. :snooze:

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

I'm "supposed to"? Says who, you?
You can't even get your own arguments striaght, and you want to tell me what I'm supposed to be arguing?

BWAHAHAHAHA

That is not my argument, poptart.

Ok so your argument is that zekey wrote the prophecy before the fact, brilliant. :snooze:

Yep. He wrote it and it was wrong.
Which is why he had to insert the amendment about Babylon getting Egypt for its reward.
Which, by the way, also failed.

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

So? The bible contradicts itself. I have no problem admitting that. You're the only one who insists that it can't have any contradictions.

Umm, what is the contradiction?

The one you posted:

1. Tyre destroyed forever and never found
2. Tyre punished for a limited amount of time

Result? PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling:

Quote:

The only contradiction exists in the imagination of the minimalist/revisionist who is obsessed with only the physical walls and streets of Tyre.

You've already been shot down in flames on that one. But go ahead - keep repeating your refuted claims; less work for me because I can just paste in my response -- you know, the one you keep running from because you can't answer it?

ROFLMAO

Minimalist · 02-13-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Actually, Shesh, Alexander got some naval assistance from Sidon and Cyprus. Enough to protect his engineers building the mole.

I know that. But read carefully what I said. Alexander did not defeat Tyre with a navy.

Alex understood combined arms techniques....not to mention military engineering. Still, Babylon, as a land-locked nation had no fleet of its own, and unlike Alex, had not captured other naval bases before attacking Tyre or induced sea-faring nations to join him.

Quote:

But to counteract this the Tyrians adopted the following contrivance. They filled a vessel, which had been used for transporting horses, with dry twigs and other combustible wood, fixed two masts on the prow, and fenced it round in the form of a circle as large as possible, so that it might contain as much chaff and as many torches as possible. Moreover they placed upon this vessel quantities of pitch, brimstone, and whatever else was calculated to foment a great flame. They also stretched out a double yard-arm upon each mast; and from these they hung caldrons into which they had poured or cast materials likely to kindle flame which would extend to a great distance. They then put ballast into the stern, in order to raise the prow aloft, the vessel being weighed down abaft. Then watching for a wind bearing towards the mole, they fastened the vessel to some triremes which towed it before the breeze. As soon as they approached the mole and the towers, they threw fire among the wood, and at the same time ran the vessel, with the triremes, aground as violently as possible, dashing against the end of the mole. The men in the vessel easily swam away, as soon as it was set on fire. A great flame soon caught the towers; and the yard-arms being twisted round poured out into the fire the materials that had been prepared for kindling the flame. The men also in the triremes tarrying near the mole kept on shooting arrows into the towers, so that it was not safe for the men to approach who were bringing materials to quench the fire. Upon this, when the towers had already caught fire, many men hastened from the city, and embarking in light vessels, and striking against various parts of the mole, easily tore down the stockade which had been placed in front of it for protection, and burned up all the engines of war which the fire from the vessel did not reach. But Alexander began to construct a wider mole from the mainland, capable of containing more towers; and he ordered the engine-makers to prepare fresh engines. While this was being performed, he took the shieldbearing guards and the Agrianians and set out to Sidon, to collect there all the triremes he could; since it was evident that the successful con clusion of the siege would be much more diffficult to attain, so long as the Tyrians retained the superiority at sea.

About this time Gerostratus, King of Aradus, and Enylus, King of Byblus, ascertaining that their cities were in the possession of Alexander, deserted Autophradates and the fleet under his command, and came to Alexander with their naval force, accompanied by the Sidonian triremes; so that about eighty Phoenician ships joined him. About the same time triremes also came to him from Rhodes, both the one called Peripolus, and nine others with it. From Soli and Mallus also came three, and from Lycia ten; from Macedonia also a ship with fifty oars, in which sailed Proteas, son of Andronicus. Not long after, too, the kings of Cyprus put into Sidon with about 120 ships, since they had heard of the defeat of Darius at Issus, and were terrified, because the whole of Phoenicia was already in the possession of Alexander.

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill...2587/tyre.html

So, there is a big difference between no ships and some ships. Frankly, I can't see how an effective siege could be maintained against an island without a navy and that was Nebby's reason for his failure....and he did FAIL. Many ancient sieges ended through treachery or trickery and that would have been Nebby's only hope without a means to bring his army to bear on the city. I guess Ezekiel was a lousy strategist, huh?

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Who are these 'jews in the desert' you refer to?

He's probably talking about the Rosenbaums. I met them last year while they were vacationing in Vegas. Such nice people; their oldest son is in medical school, you know.

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