pharoah

The Romulus and Remus myth makes for a better fit to me than Moses. The virgin birth, the magi and the guiding star are all readaptations of pagan myths.

Chris Weimer

You care to explain this a bit? All those are steeped in Judaism, especially the guided star, which is the Star Prophecy, from Numbers 24.17, which is mentioned not only by the New Testament, but also the DSS and Josephus (who applied it to Vespasian) and was even taken by a Simon who called himself Simon Bar Kochba (Simon Son of the Star).

Vorkosigan

...known by some people of your era. The vast majority of people knew nothing about Jeus or Judaism. And further, Jesus was not "fictional" but "mythical" a big difference. He existed but not in our reality. It was Mark who reworked the myth into a narrative, and Luke who turned it into history, finally.

Not at all. Look at our own day. Scientific and scholarly information is known but discounted by the great majority of believers. The essence of belief is denial of reality. In any case, the argument is not that Jesus is a fiction, but that he is not a historical character.

Not fictitious -- mythical. Big difference.

Vorkosigan

Ben C Smith

Is this particular element strictly fictional or is it fiction based on real life?

Last fall millions watched as a supposedly cursed baseball team, long the underdog, finally broke out and won their first World Series in nearly a century. Was that fact or fiction? After all, the poor underdog who comes out on top at last is a staple of modern sports fiction....

Ben.

andrewcriddle

This argument would seem to assume that Luke 22:43-44 is part of the original text of Luke, which is rather doubtful. (The most ancient manuscripts tend to omit it.)

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan

Thanks Andrew...but the point does remain. Someone who read it realized it was fiction, what it was based on, and added the detail. But I will not be able to make that point about Luke anymore!

Point withdrawn!

Ben, I'll have to get back to you tomorrow.

Vorkosigan

neilgodfrey

I've presented this thought over the years to different groups and each time got hit with the heavy silence that sounded like everyone was thinking "bad argument" -- though its only a proposed way of reading the text, not an argument anyway -- and it won't go away from me either.

What I find a little interesting is that if Mark is read this way it sounds not unlike the similar generalizations found in other biblical literature that were meant to be taken literally and absolutely, though some of the learned no doubt allowed themselves the liberty of reading them fictionally/parabolically if you will, and that also set the theological message of Mark much more firmly in a particular tradition of biblical/Hebrew literature.

Compare Genesis which speaks of all the earth being wicked and violent so that God had to destroy them all and start again. But more to my point, compare the covenant between God and Israel at Sinai where it is said all (clearly literally all) Israel were obedient and willing to obey God (Ex.19:8). Then look at the description of Solomon's reign as the fulfilment of all God's promises -- and we read there that "every man sat under his vine and fig tree" (I Ki.4:25). The reader is clearly meant to imagine the whole of Israel being perfect and having it just right for one or two (and I am pretty sure there are other examples too) brief moments in their past. The point of these literary conceits is to present a theological message through them. The message is that old Israel had it all and started out right but lost it because of their sin so readers (the new Israel being addressed) can learn not to fall into the same error. This is a recurrent theme throughout the biblical literature and one also "arguably" found in Mark -- Israel started out just great, even the apostles started out just great -- but look what happened! By the end they all turned against the Messiah and even the apostles dipped out -- the same essential theme as found in the Primary History. Let new Israel beware! is the message -- given this reading.