Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dave · 03-10-2004, 02:17 PM

someone please give me some info to prove my stupid history teacher wrong.

Steven Carr · 03-10-2004, 02:25 PM

Why weren't you convinced by the evidence your history teacher put forward as support?

Toto · 03-10-2004, 02:38 PM

To start out with, women could not be priests and men could. However you want to explain this, it shows that women were not treated equal to men.

The laws on adultery were different for husbands and wives. Women's testimony was not accepted in court.

I think there is even a part of the Bible that calls for women to be paid 60% of a man's wage.

If you need more, check out these two recent threads:

Sexism in the Bible

Women's testimony

Toto · 03-10-2004, 02:54 PM

Bible's Sexual Morality

Quote:

Biblical sexual mores were centered around two concerns: preserving the property rights and honor of men with respect to the women in their households, and avoiding tebel, a Hebrew word best translated as "improper mixing," which could threaten the order that God had imposed upon chaos.

The status of women and children in biblical times was little above that of chattel. Sexual behavior was prohibited only when it interfered with another male's property rights or honor. "Adultery" was defined as sleeping with another's wife, but sexual relations between married men and prostitutes were not prohibited. Sleeping with a stepmother or daughter-in-law was punishable by death, but there was no explicit prohibition against a father having sex with an unmarried daughter. "Rape" of an unmarried woman was defined not according to whether the woman consented but whether her father gave permission.

The laws against homosexuality and bestiality found in chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus derive from the taboo against tebel. Sexual acts between males or between humans and animals constituted "improper mixing" that could lead to cosmic collapse just as mixing two kinds of crops in a field or two kinds of material in clothing.

The Rev. Allen H. Brill is a Lutheran pastor (E.L.C.A.) in South Carolina and founder of The Right Christians, an organization to provide a voice for Christian progressives. Write him at abrill@therightchristians.org.

Marduk · 03-10-2004, 03:50 PM

If they were Egyptian women living in Egypt during the Old Kingdom (2500 BCE) this is probably true. They had virtually the same rights as men: could own property or a business, testify in court, make a will, sue for divorce etc. and there was no stigma to divorce. That was sort of like Biblical times, in a way, maybe, a little bit. OK, so it was before the flood and there were no Jews or Israel yet. But there were woman being treated as equal to men.

Malachi151 · 03-10-2004, 04:12 PM

This would have been true is some Greek cultures, though not all, and not in Roman culture, or Jewish culture.

Also tell your teacher that according to the Catholic Church, that judgeing from the story of Jesus's birth Mary would have been 12 years old when she gave brith of Jesus.

It is true apparently that women played more prominent roles in the Christian "ministry" in the early days, which was, from what I have heard, partly because Christianity was a revolutionary movement, while women had lesser roles in the traditional Jewish culture.

You have to remmebr that early Chrisitanity was a liberal revolutionary movement of sorts.

There is also a new history about Mary Magdaline having actually been the "real leader" of Jesus' decipels, but that she was written out when the religion was adopted by the Roman State.

Also, "Biblical times" spans about 3,000 years, during which there were thousands of different cultures on earth, each one of them different.

funinspace · 03-10-2004, 04:45 PM

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "...women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

Sound pretty obvious to me, and pretty second class. Of course you can get alot of crap about different but equal.

DK

Viti · 03-10-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Also, "Biblical times" spans about 3,000 years, during which there were thousands of different cultures on earth, each one of them different.

This is the most pertinent issue I think. What kind of History teacher uses "in Biblical times"? The Bible spans so many years, and one culture. "Biblical times" is meaningless.

Gawen · 03-10-2004, 05:43 PM

Women's Rights

~ Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

~ 1 Corinthians.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

~ 1 Corinthians.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

~ Ephesians.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

~ Colossians.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

~ 1 Timothy.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

~ 1 Peter.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

Adora · 03-10-2004, 08:57 PM

"Biblical Times" is a huge timeline, but generally, ask him/her to point out where they mean. Judaism is matrilineal, but not matriachal, Rome and Greece had powerful women, who could practially do almost everything men could, but were still not equal in any philosophies, ideals, religious systems etc etc. Some may be a bit better than others, but generally, on the whole, over the entire "Biblical" period, women had it pretty shithouse.

03-10-2004, 02:17 PM	#1
Dave Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: PA Posts: 181	My history teacher said that during biblical times, woman were treated equal to men someone please give me some info to prove my stupid history teacher wrong.

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03-10-2004, 02:25 PM	#2
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Why weren't you convinced by the evidence your history teacher put forward as support?

03-10-2004, 02:38 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	To start out with, women could not be priests and men could. However you want to explain this, it shows that women were not treated equal to men. The laws on adultery were different for husbands and wives. Women's testimony was not accepted in court. I think there is even a part of the Bible that calls for women to be paid 60% of a man's wage. If you need more, check out these two recent threads: Sexism in the Bible Women's testimony

03-10-2004, 03:50 PM	#5
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	If they were Egyptian women living in Egypt during the Old Kingdom (2500 BCE) this is probably true. They had virtually the same rights as men: could own property or a business, testify in court, make a will, sue for divorce etc. and there was no stigma to divorce. That was sort of like Biblical times, in a way, maybe, a little bit. OK, so it was before the flood and there were no Jews or Israel yet. But there were woman being treated as equal to men.

03-10-2004, 04:12 PM	#6
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	This would have been true is some Greek cultures, though not all, and not in Roman culture, or Jewish culture. Also tell your teacher that according to the Catholic Church, that judgeing from the story of Jesus's birth Mary would have been 12 years old when she gave brith of Jesus. It is true apparently that women played more prominent roles in the Christian "ministry" in the early days, which was, from what I have heard, partly because Christianity was a revolutionary movement, while women had lesser roles in the traditional Jewish culture. You have to remmebr that early Chrisitanity was a liberal revolutionary movement of sorts. There is also a new history about Mary Magdaline having actually been the "real leader" of Jesus' decipels, but that she was written out when the religion was adopted by the Roman State. Also, "Biblical times" spans about 3,000 years, during which there were thousands of different cultures on earth, each one of them different.

03-10-2004, 04:45 PM	#7
funinspace Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: North West usa Posts: 10,245	1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "...women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." Sound pretty obvious to me, and pretty second class. Of course you can get alot of crap about different but equal. DK

03-10-2004, 05:43 PM	#9
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	Women's Rights ~ Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. ~ 1 Corinthians.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." ~ 1 Corinthians.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." ~ Ephesians.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." ~ Colossians.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord." ~ 1 Timothy.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing. ~ 1 Peter.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

03-10-2004, 08:57 PM	#10
Adora Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 1,743	"Biblical Times" is a huge timeline, but generally, ask him/her to point out where they mean. Judaism is matrilineal, but not matriachal, Rome and Greece had powerful women, who could practially do almost everything men could, but were still not equal in any philosophies, ideals, religious systems etc etc. Some may be a bit better than others, but generally, on the whole, over the entire "Biblical" period, women had it pretty shithouse.

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