Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tommorris · 06-02-2004, 05:31 PM

I was, during an ad break, watching some televangelist spouting out of Genesis and it got me thinking (watching TV preachers isn't what I usually do to warm the braincells up, but, hey, it's variety). If it took God six days to create the world as he saw fit for Adam to enter, surely this makes him rather less than omnipotent. If you were truly omnipotent, why do you need to take time over making a planet. You could literally make universes with the click of your fingers. Why would you bother to strech out the creation of this blue-green planet (at the unfashionable end of the galaxy...) over six days? Why not just snap those bitchin' omnipotent fingers and get it over with?

And if this argument is true, it invalidates a shit load of theories - the Argument From Design (if that wasn't so hackneyed already), the Argument From Natural Law, the Argument From First Cause and the Moral Arguments are all weakened. Plus, it kind of slightly invalidates Pascal's Wager. Who would want to take the wager if the God they are betting on isn't omnipotent after all?

Mageth · 06-02-2004, 05:46 PM

In the first place, it's a poetic myth.

In the second place, the majority of Christians, and virtually all Jews, don't interpret Gen. 1 literally. Some do, yes, but most don't.

In the third place, and here defending the literal Biblical view, if it is a literal account of creation, there's no reason to limit an omnipotent God to "snap of the finger" creation. One of his powers, after all, would be to do things as he damn well pleases.

If he wanted to create instantly, he could create instantly. If he wanted to take six days, he could take six days. And so on.

Magdlyn · 06-02-2004, 05:47 PM

This story was written to validate the Hebrew's policy of resting on the 7th day of the week. Once they were conquered and in exile in Babylon and had no Temple with its attendant worship and sacrifices to ID with, they needed tribal unity. Honoring the Sabbath and eating kosher were 2 ways they held together as a tribe outside of the homeland.

Their priests kindly wrote them this story to show them and their captors it was something God did, so they had to too.

dado · 06-02-2004, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommorris

Why not just snap those bitchin' omnipotent fingers and get it over with?

um...because it would make for a piss poor story. it would have been a lousy - not to mention short - movie if Neo realized he could stop bullets in the first reel.

Magus55 · 06-02-2004, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommorris

I was, during an ad break, watching some televangelist spouting out of Genesis and it got me thinking (watching TV preachers isn't what I usually do to warm the braincells up, but, hey, it's variety). If it took God six days to create the world as he saw fit for Adam to enter, surely this makes him rather less than omnipotent. If you were truly omnipotent, why do you need to take time over making a planet. You could literally make universes with the click of your fingers. Why would you bother to strech out the creation of this blue-green planet (at the unfashionable end of the galaxy...) over six days? Why not just snap those bitchin' omnipotent fingers and get it over with?

And if this argument is true, it invalidates a shit load of theories - the Argument From Design (if that wasn't so hackneyed already), the Argument From Natural Law, the Argument From First Cause and the Moral Arguments are all weakened. Plus, it kind of slightly invalidates Pascal's Wager. Who would want to take the wager if the God they are betting on isn't omnipotent after all?

It was to set an example for the Sabbath. 6 days of work ( creation), 1 day of rest.

mrmoderate · 06-02-2004, 08:51 PM

I can't believe you could stop on a show like that for that long

I'm a Christian and I can't stand hearing one syllable of how these guys speak

tommorris · 06-03-2004, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmoderate

I can't believe you could stop on a show like that for that long

I'm a Christian and I can't stand hearing one syllable of how these guys speak

Hey, it was during an adbreak. Perhaps it's a difference of perspective, but I find televangelists so rabid they are funny. If I was a Christian, though, I wouldn't watch them. They seem to get their Scripture wholly messed up. One of the preachers I saw was actually insulting his audience - calling them liars, agents of satan etc. Hmm, 'preaching love and forgiveness'.

Warthur · 06-03-2004, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommorris

One of the preachers I saw was actually insulting his audience - calling them liars, agents of satan etc.

I'd actually pay money to watch that. More money if I was allowed to shout back.

lpetrich · 06-03-2004, 11:12 PM

The Genesis 1 creation story is very schematic:

Environments:

Day 1: Celestial
Day
Night

Day 2: Far Terrestrial
Air
Sea

Day 3: Near terrestrial
Land
Plants

Inhabitants:

Day 4: Celestial
Sun
Moon, stars

Day 5: Far terrestrial
Flying animals
Sea animals

Day 6: Near terrestrial
Land animals, humanity
"You may eat these"

Day 7: the first Sabbath day in the history of the Universe, with God feeling very happy about what he had done.

The Genesis 2 creation story is much more improvised; God has to fix his creation as he goes, and he must have felt very exasperated at the end of it.

Mageth · 06-04-2004, 12:15 PM

In the Genesis 1 creation account, serene, detached El is the one doing the creatin'. Genesis 2 describes rash, in-your-face YHWH's go at it.

YHWH's quite a bit more hasty and thus more clumsy and careless, and rather hot-headed to boot. Note that El was sensible enough not to plant nasty trees where his pets could get to them, and apparently kept the sly serpents penned up somewhere. El was also smart enough to create man and woman at the same time, so he didn't have to yank out one of Adam's ribs to fix his oversight.

06-02-2004, 05:31 PM	#1
tommorris Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: UK Posts: 141	Genesis I was, during an ad break, watching some televangelist spouting out of Genesis and it got me thinking (watching TV preachers isn't what I usually do to warm the braincells up, but, hey, it's variety). If it took God six days to create the world as he saw fit for Adam to enter, surely this makes him rather less than omnipotent. If you were truly omnipotent, why do you need to take time over making a planet. You could literally make universes with the click of your fingers. Why would you bother to strech out the creation of this blue-green planet (at the unfashionable end of the galaxy...) over six days? Why not just snap those bitchin' omnipotent fingers and get it over with? And if this argument is true, it invalidates a shit load of theories - the Argument From Design (if that wasn't so hackneyed already), the Argument From Natural Law, the Argument From First Cause and the Moral Arguments are all weakened. Plus, it kind of slightly invalidates Pascal's Wager. Who would want to take the wager if the God they are betting on isn't omnipotent after all?

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06-02-2004, 05:46 PM	#2
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	In the first place, it's a poetic myth. In the second place, the majority of Christians, and virtually all Jews, don't interpret Gen. 1 literally. Some do, yes, but most don't. In the third place, and here defending the literal Biblical view, if it is a literal account of creation, there's no reason to limit an omnipotent God to "snap of the finger" creation. One of his powers, after all, would be to do things as he damn well pleases. If he wanted to create instantly, he could create instantly. If he wanted to take six days, he could take six days. And so on.

06-02-2004, 05:47 PM	#3
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	This story was written to validate the Hebrew's policy of resting on the 7th day of the week. Once they were conquered and in exile in Babylon and had no Temple with its attendant worship and sacrifices to ID with, they needed tribal unity. Honoring the Sabbath and eating kosher were 2 ways they held together as a tribe outside of the homeland. Their priests kindly wrote them this story to show them and their captors it was something God did, so they had to too.

06-02-2004, 08:51 PM	#6
mrmoderate Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Baltimore/DC area Posts: 1,306	I can't believe you could stop on a show like that for that long I'm a Christian and I can't stand hearing one syllable of how these guys speak

06-03-2004, 11:12 PM	#9
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	The Genesis 1 creation story is very schematic: Environments: Day 1: Celestial Day Night Day 2: Far Terrestrial Air Sea Day 3: Near terrestrial Land Plants Inhabitants: Day 4: Celestial Sun Moon, stars Day 5: Far terrestrial Flying animals Sea animals Day 6: Near terrestrial Land animals, humanity "You may eat these" Day 7: the first Sabbath day in the history of the Universe, with God feeling very happy about what he had done. The Genesis 2 creation story is much more improvised; God has to fix his creation as he goes, and he must have felt very exasperated at the end of it.

06-04-2004, 12:15 PM	#10
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	In the Genesis 1 creation account, serene, detached El is the one doing the creatin'. Genesis 2 describes rash, in-your-face YHWH's go at it. YHWH's quite a bit more hasty and thus more clumsy and careless, and rather hot-headed to boot. Note that El was sensible enough not to plant nasty trees where his pets could get to them, and apparently kept the sly serpents penned up somewhere. El was also smart enough to create man and woman at the same time, so he didn't have to yank out one of Adam's ribs to fix his oversight.

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