Toto

I'm not sure what Johnny Skeptic meant by that. It was hidden in his longer post.

If you want to quote someone, use the quote tags with [ QUOTE = name ] (without the blanks.)

arnoldo

Meaning that he prophesied that he would be rejecting and an offense to men.

A lot of people get offended when you mention Jesus which kinda is an undisputable proof of the prophecy.

chrisengland

ok lets see if i got it
Apparently Josh Mcdowel(sorry if that is not how it is spelt) tried to prove the resurrection didn't happen but found some evidence and then became a Christian.
Although I read something on the internet wich looked at the reasons Mcdowel had given for becoming a Christian 'and whoever write it thought it seemed that he actually had emotinal reasons for becoming a Christian.

Darklighter

The problem with that is that WE KNOW that the "fulfillments" were written down way after the fact.

For a good example of how a brilliant story can be crafted around a set pre-existing (and even unrelated) criteria, read Dan Brown's Angels & Demons. You can go to Rome, you can follow the trail of REAL clues, you can verify their "meaning", and be led to a completely fabricated conclusion. All using real history. Piecing together such a story is much more difficult than what would've had to be done if the gospels were faked. All you'd need is a knoweledge of the area, a knoweledge of history, and a knoweledge of the OT. BTW, I said UNDISPUTABLE.

Darklighter

Sorry, but if I ran around making claims that I was supernatural, and then made a "prophecy" that people wouldn't believe me, would you be impressed if it was fulfilled?

Sheshonq

I get offended at Mormon missionaries knocking at the door and Amway salesmen, too. Guess that shows that Mormons and Amway salesmen are proof of prophecy.

10 seconds, arnoldo - that's all it takes to spot these mistakes before you embarrass yourself. :rolling:

Johnny Skeptic

But why weren't most Jews aware that Jesus was the messiah? Although you claim that is was the Jews' fault that they did not accept Jesus, if the God of the Bible exists, he could easily have prevented any confusion regarding disputes about whether or not Jesus was the messiah. All that he would have needed to do would have been to inspire Old Testament writers to write unmistakable messianic prophecies. For instance, Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the writer had said that the ruler would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom, that would have helped a lot. In addition, regarding the Pharisees' claims that Jesus healed people by the power of Beelzebub, if an Old Testament writer had said that the messiah would heal people by the power of God, that would have helped a lot. Further, if an Old Testament writer had said that the messiah's name would be Jesus, and that his mother would be Mary, and that the messiah would be crucified, and rise from the dead, that would have helped a lot.

Now those are just a few of many examples of where God could easily have prevented disputes regarding whether or not Jesus was the messiah. A God would not have any trouble at all preventing disputes about anything, including slavery. Jefferson Davis was President of the Southern Confederacy. He was a Christian. He believed that the Bible endorses slavery, which it does. Even if the Bible did not endorse slavery, God could easily have prevented Davis from believing that the Bible endorses slavery. First of all, he could have inspired Bible writers to write more clearly about slavery. Second of all, he could have appeared to Davis in a dream and told him that slavery is wrong. Third of all, he could have sent a tangible angel to tell Davis that slavery is wrong.

Would the Tyre prophecy have been less disputable if Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander?

If the Bible had contained many accurate predictions regarding when and where a lot of natural diasters would occur that have occured, would Bible prophecy be a lot easier to defend?

If President Bush predicted when and where the next hurricane would occur, and all of the world media let people know about his prediction, if his prediction came true, it is reasonable to assume that at least 90% of the people who knew about the prediction would believe that he knew in advance when and where the hurricane would occur. If he continued to make accurate predictions, pretty soon almost everyone in the world would believe that he could predict the future.

If the God of the Bible exists, he would easily have been able to convince every mentally competent person in the world that he is able to predict the future thousands of years ago. Thus, you cannot intelligently argue that God uses prophecy as a sign for believers, or unbelievers.

Your claim that God uses prophecy to strenghthen the faith of believers does not always work. No Jew who lived during Ezekiel's time saw the Tyre prophecy fulfilled, nor did any Jew for several more generations. If anything, that weakened the faith of the Jews, and strengthened the faith of the Tyrians, who must have concluded that either the God of the Bible is not all-powerful, or more likely that he does not exist. When Alexander finally defeated Tyre, lots of Jews must have wondered why Ezekiel did not mention Alexander. Many Jews who lived during Ezekiel's time would also have wondered why Ezekiel predicted that "a king of kings" would go down the streets of Tyre, and tear down its towers, only to fail to defeat Tyre, and they would have wondered why God broke his word to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre like God promised

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: In the NASB, 2 Samuel 7:10 says "I will fix a place for my people Israel; I will plant them so that they may dwell in their place without further disturbance. Neither shall the wicked continue to afflict them as they did of old." The Partition of Palestine most certainly did not fulfill that prophecy, and it never will since the Jews are surrounded by hostile neighbors, not to mention terrorists who live in Israel, and some Muslim countries that are developing nuclear weapons. Since 2 Samuel 7:10 can never be fulfilled in this life, and since it refers to this life, it is a false prophecy. If you claim that the Israelis will make peace with Muslims, I will remind you that the New Testament says that there will always be wars and rumors of war in this life. That claim most certainly did not exclude the Middle East.

Old Testament Jews were deceived by the writer of 2 Samuel. They definitely expected that eventually, IN THIS LIFE, Jews would have a homeland where they would not be bothered by anyone. That most certainly is not going to happen.

Johnny Skeptic

Well, after the fact would be much more understandable and believable if the Bible contained just one prediction regarding when and where a natural disaster would occur that came true.

Regarding "a bona-fide self-fulfilled prophecy," the Partition of Palestine is an excellent example of a self-fulfilled prophecy. Since you still do not understand the fallacy of a self-fulfilled prophecy, I will be happy to educate you regarding what a self-fulfilled prophecy is. Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_fulfilling_prophecy

Have you got it now? "The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning."

The Partition of Palestine would have happened even if the God of the Bible does not exist. Regardless of whether or not a prophecy is true, all that it take to make it come true is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true. If the Axis powers had won the Second World War, obviously, the Partition of Palestine would not have happened. Of the 33governments that voted in favor of the partition, 32 are predominately Christian. The only exception was the Russian government, which was at the time receiving lots of financial aid from the U.S. for rebuilding purposes after the Second World War. Of the 13 governments that voted against the partition, 12 were non-Christian, and one, the Greek government, is nominally Christian.

Logically, a man can be just as motivated by a false belief as he can by a true belief. Some examples are Muslim terrorists and Japanese kamikave pilots.

RandomCoolzip

All it would take would be to paint "Be still, and know that I am God" on the Moon, or something like that.