Apostate1970

Just felt like posting a poll!

Poll questions regard this document (in any translation)...

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html

I searched the forum to see if there was any thread already started that involved any discussion of or reaction to this document and found nothing but one brief mention of it.

I am not especially interested in a detailed discussion of the nature and origin of this work or its place (or lack thereof) in Judaeo-Christianity, although if anyone else is interested in this they're certainly welcome to start such a discussion here and I'm sure I'd follow along.

bilby

It seems like a fairly typical epic poem to me. I don't see it having any special merit as such, but it is OK. Like all good art, it informs the viewer about himself, rather than about itself; IMHO it does this passing well, but not on a par with the greatest art. OTOH, poetry is not so much my thing; I prefer a visual medium: Painting or sculpture are more me.

I voted neutral.

ETA I would not have replied at all if I was not in a situation of enforced boredom. (sorry to be brutally honest).

Apostate1970

I'm in somewhat the same position.

Elijah

One of my favorites.

Osbert

If you do not mind me asking, why is it one of your favourites ?

Do you know/understand who the speaker is?

Elijah

I think the author is unknown but they are channeling the feminine aspect of the universe.
I think it is well written first off. I like the tone, the confidence and the dualities portrayed.

I’m a fan of the feminine side of religion and there isn’t a lot remaining of their way of thinking and Thunder is a rare case to hear the voice of the divine female aspect that’s been lost in today’s society.

I think that it was lost of so long only to be dug up out of the desert with some Christian texts and Plato's Republic is especially neat.

ashurbanipal

Also one of my favorites....

Apostate1970

I think it would be really silly and presumptuous to say more than Elijah has said regarding "gnosis" or knowledge of the speaker. I don't think anyone has to answer that, but, since it's been asked, who do you think the speaker is Osbert? I think that trying to answer that and being able to give a sympathetic reading of the poem is what's important. Well, you know what? I'm going to be silly an presumptuous and say that I think it's Sophia.

To quote this translator's own introduction to his translation, as it appears in a collection edited by Willis Barnstone, "In terms of religious tradition Thunder, Perfect Mind is difficult to classify. It presents no distinctively Jewish, Christian or Gnostic themes... the Jewish wisdom literature and the Isis areatologies provide texts which are parallel in tone and style...".

As for tone and style issues: I agree with what Elijah said about "confidence"... it's really "sexy"...

I also find it interesting that some of the dichotomies are straightforward opposites, seemingly irreconcilable, while others are merely paradoxical and take some thinking to resolve a meaning. For just one of many examples "Give heed to my poverty and my wealth.": one can be poor in one respect and yet rich in another, so this might be asking the hearer to consider what are the true dimensions of wealth, akin to "Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:19-24. Obviously I am not actually intending any connection between these verses but just pointing out the notion.

I also find that, while the paradoxical nature seems to demand reflection and thought to decipher, and while we are exhorted to reflect by the poem itself, the overall tone is more that of a mantra... not meant to be analyzed at all but to be recited poetically or even in a rapid-fire way almost as if to induce a sort of meditative stupor. I think these two opposite reading approaches actually illustrate the thesis/antithesis aspect of the work in a sort of self-reflexive way and thus lend it a kind of consistency which it superficially lacks... and I have to say that I think that's really clever!

Here is wikipedia's writeup on it for anyone who is interested and hasn't already looked it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thunder_Perfect_Mind

To quote the wiki, "Examples of the genre abound in Old Testament literature.". But I think that if you look at canonical OT literature this is just really not correct at all. There may be some riddle aspects in some of the prophetic books but they are not at all "abundant" and they are in a male voice. Of course if we look at extracanonical literature then yes it is somewhat more common.

The closest you can find to this in the canonical literature is in the Catholic bible in Wisdom chapters 6-8. There are very obvious differences here but some of the themes and concerns, and the exhortative and laudatory aspects, and the presence of the feminine are all in common. If anyone does read this they'd have to read all three chapters to get a sense of the commonality.

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/wis006.htm

Ok, I've said enough and I don't want to turn this thread into a bible study thread.

Scorpion

This poll is missing TLDR option.

-S-

Apostate1970

OK, I'll bite: what is TLDR?