angelo

I don't mean to but in, but I can't resist. sugarhitman seems to be placing all his faith, as most Fundy's do, on the bible. I wonder if he's actually ever really read the thing.
How anyone can make heads or tails out of that history of contradictions, and all the interpretations that are possible from what the authors wrote, not to mention the many times all this so-called scripture has been copied and re-copied, each time the copier adding what he thought was missing, and then you have the oral traditions that were added later still. How on earth can anyone read any truth in such a jumble of words that really don't mean anything to anyone. The point been. You can interpret the bible any way people think it should be. That's why we have thousands of religions. Can anyone tell which is the correct one?

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo and sugarhitman: Since you want skeptics to believe that God can predict the future, I will agree for the sake of argument that God can predict the future, which only means that I agree that God is powerful. What do you want me to agree with next for the sake of argument?

Johnny Skeptic

There is a simple, logical test that proves that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Partition of Palestine was not a self-fulfilled prophecy, if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Hitler and other parties had persecuted Palestinians instead of Jews, the 32 Christian nations that voted in favor of the partition would have awarded control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and a grossly disproportionate amount of land per capita like the Jews got. Everyone knows that that would not have happened, which proves that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy. If is much too much of a coincidence that 32 of the 33 governments that voted for the Partition of Palestine were Christian governments, and that 12 of the 13 governments that voted against the Partition of Palestine were non-Christian governments, and one government, the Greek government, was nominally Christian.

Logically, all that it takes to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true. If the Koran said that a Mulsim temple would be rebuilt in Mecca, and a Muslim temple was rebuilt in Mecca, no Christian would believe that that was a legitimate fulfillment of prophecy.

All Bible prophecies are disputable. No rational God would make 100% disputable prophecies. I wish to distinguish disputable prophecies from false prophecies. A false prophecy is a prophecy that does not come true. A disputable prophecy does not necessarily have to be a false prophecy. Even if all Bible prophecies are true prophecies, they have needlessly failed to convince the vast majority of the people in the world that they are true prophecies. If Jesus had accurately predicted what the names of the Roman emperors would be for the next 200 years, and their dates of birth and death, those would have been indisputable prophecies if we were to define indisputable prophecies as prophecies that could not have been made by humans, and would therefore plausibly have been made by a God. Since the New Testament says that Jesus made some predictions, Christians cannot intelligently argue that if Jesus had predicted what I said, that that would have unfairly interfered with people’s free will. If Jesus had predicted what I said, surely more people would have become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

In my opinion, no prophecies at all would be much better than 100% disputable prophecies. That is because the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), and yet Bible prophecies have needlessly caused lots of confusion. If God could have prevented a lot of confusion by inspiring prophecies that were more convincing, then he is the author of confusion. It is called negligence. We have laws against negligence. I assume that arnoldo and sugarhitman approve of them.

Arnoldo and sugarhitman would have people believe that a loving God exists who wants people to hear the Gospel message, but only if another person tells them about it. In addition, they would have people believe that a loving God exists who wants people to have enough food to eat, but only if they are able to obtain it through human effort.

Why does God predict the future?

Why are all Bible prophecies disputable?

Of what value are prophecies to people who have never heard them, which would have been over 90% of the people in the world during Old Testament times, and a large percentage of people in the world during New Testament times?

What evidence is there that God is not able to provide additional evidence that would convince more people to love and accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will?

Johnny Skeptic

It is interesting to note that under many different circumstances, arnoldo and sugarhitman would not have been Christians, and they would have been just as certain of their worldviews as they are now. I do not find a God to be appealing who allows what people believe to be determined by chance and circumstance. In the book 'One Nation Under God,' Kosmin and Lachman show that the primary factors that determine what Americans believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, and age. I would like to add time period to that list since it makes a big difference what century a person lives in.

If the Jews appointed themselves as God's chosen people, that explains why God turned his back on almost everyone else in the world during Old Testament times.

thedeist

sugarman,


go back to your jews for jesus discussion forum.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo and sugarhitman: Why did God choose the Jews to be his chosen people?

blastula

So what part of those passages has been fulfilled?

All of Judah and Jerusalem have returned? No. Those who lived at the time of the prophecy are all dead, and only some of their descendants would have returned.

Judah and Jerusalem last forever? Can't say yet.

All Jews are in one nation? No. Jews live in many nations.

Israel has one king? No, it has a parliamentary democracy with a president and prime minister.

Two kingdoms no more? Possible, if you call Israel the only Jewish kingdom.

Those are very unfulfilled. Try again.

sugarhitman

Oh poor me, I could have sworn that Judah was one of the twelve tribes of ISRAEL....the nation of Israel is restored just as foretold....get over it. After the Babylonian captivity the nation of Israel (all tribes) made The City of David (Jerusalem) their capital, all Israel are now refered to as Jews, a name originally associated with Judah.....they are now one nation....you loose. <wave>

Johnny Skeptic

If God can predict the future, what does that prove other than that he can predict the future?

arnoldo

Why do you ask about the third temple when you deny that the first and second temple actually existed? Sorry, the first and second temple actually existed as described in the bible and is absolutely verified by archaelogical evidence. I recommend you go to a library and do a little research on the subject. As far as the third temple have ye not read "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up"