Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-20-2013, 02:36 AM

Robert Grant in his book Augustus to Constantine: The Rise and Triumph of Christianity in the Roman World (or via: amazon.co.uk) discusses the early Christian attitude to slavery at pp.269-270. Notably none of the Christians raised basic questions related to the equality of slaves, or considered for a moment the immorality of the institution of slavery.

At the conclusion of this section Grant writes:

Quote:

The idea that slavery is immoral because all men are equal before God is expressed only in the Gnostic "Acts of Thomas" [82-83].

We therefore should be mindful that, whoever we think the Gnostics were, they were a class above the rabble that followed the canonical books, at least in regard to the morality of slavery.

mountainman · 02-20-2013, 11:26 PM

The Bible and slavery

Quote:

The Bible contains several references to slavery. The Bible does not condemn slavery, but in fact supports the regulated practice of it, especially under the Old Testament,[1][2] but also in the New Testament.[3][4]

Male Israelite slaves were to be offered release after seven years of service, with some stipulations.[5][6][7]

Foreign slaves and their posterity became the perpetual property of the owner's family,[8] except in the case of certain injuries.[9]

The regulation of slavery in the Bible, and absence of outright condemnation of it as an institution, was later used to justify slavery by its defenders.[10][11] Abolitionists have also used text from the New Testament to argue for the manumission of slaves.[12][13][14][15]

Tenorikuma · 02-21-2013, 04:31 AM

Weren't the Essenes supposedly opposed to slavery?

mountainman · 02-21-2013, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Weren't the Essenes supposedly opposed to slavery?

We have no writings from the Essenes themselves, only 2nd and 3rd hand reports of this group. Some people have expressed doubts as to their historical existence (e.g. Rachel Ellior).

The historian Grant appears to be claiming that out of all the literary sources in antiquity - inclusive of the entire literary output of all the early Christians including Jesus and the Apostles and all the so-called "Bishops" and "Church Fathers", only the heretical suppressed and prohibited writing of the Gnostics in their non canonical material, express the notion that "slavery is immoral because all men are equal before God".

Toto · 02-21-2013, 12:55 PM

Could you at least identify the particular part of the Acts of Thomas that opposes the institution of slavery? I don't see it.

Acts of Thomas

Quote:

Now the Lord seeing him walking in the market-place at noon said unto him: Wouldest thou buy a carpenter? And he said to him: Yea. And the Lord said to him: I have a slave that is a carpenter and I desire to sell him. And so saying he showed him Thomas afar off, and agreed with him for three litrae of silver unstamped, and wrote a deed of sale, saying: I, Jesus, the son of Joseph the carpenter, acknowledge that I have sold my slave, Judas by name, unto thee Abbanes, a merchant of Gundaphorus, king of the Indians. And when the deed was finished, the Saviour took Judas Thomas and led him away to Abbanes the merchant, and when Abbanes saw him he said unto him: Is this thy master? And the apostle said: Yea, he is my Lord. And he said: I have bought thee of him. And thy apostle held his peace.

There is language in Paul about in Christ there is no male or female, slave or free,, etc. Perhaps this derived from the gnostics - but it must refer to the practice in the church, not the economic structure of the outside world.

Chili · 02-21-2013, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Could you at least identify the particular part of the Acts of Thomas that opposes the institution of slavery? I don't see it.

Acts of Thomas

Quote:

Now the Lord seeing him walking in the market-place at noon said unto him: Wouldest thou buy a carpenter? And he said to him: Yea. And the Lord said to him: I have a slave that is a carpenter and I desire to sell him. And so saying he showed him Thomas afar off, and agreed with him for three litrae of silver unstamped, and wrote a deed of sale, saying: I, Jesus, the son of Joseph the carpenter, acknowledge that I have sold my slave, Judas by name, unto thee Abbanes, a merchant of Gundaphorus, king of the Indians. And when the deed was finished, the Saviour took Judas Thomas and led him away to Abbanes the merchant, and when Abbanes saw him he said unto him: Is this thy master? And the apostle said: Yea, he is my Lord. And he said: I have bought thee of him. And thy apostle held his peace.

There is language in Paul about in Christ there is no male or female, slave or free,, etc. Perhaps this derived from the gnostics - but it must refer to the practice in the church, not the economic structure of the outside world.

But Toto, in this context here Judas Thomas was faith as a slave and with Thomas as doubt removed from the truth that Jesus was, and sold it here to be determined to succeed = knowledge frees.

It is very affirming to proceed without faith and doubt (Judas-Thomas here as twin) and that contradicts the mother-in-law healing of Mark just after the dove had descended on Jesus wherein here now doubt was revived and instantly she waited on him in Mark, while in Thomas both were sold-off.

Chili · 02-21-2013, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Weren't the Essenes supposedly opposed to slavery?

We have no writings from the Essenes themselves, only 2nd and 3rd hand reports of this group. Some people have expressed doubts as to their historical existence (e.g. Rachel Ellior).

The historian Grant appears to be claiming that out of all the literary sources in antiquity - inclusive of the entire literary output of all the early Christians including Jesus and the Apostles and all the so-called "Bishops" and "Church Fathers", only the heretical suppressed and prohibited writing of the Gnostics in their non canonical material, express the notion that "slavery is immoral because all men are equal before God".

Essenes were Freeman gallivanting about and they would condemn slavery of any kind.

Slavery itself is good as pertaining to sheep like in a flock, wherein they are guided by the shepherd wherein they have faith in their master who leads them hither and fro, and all he needs to know is that hither and thither they go.

The slave image is crucial to establish a stream of consciousness against which they must go astray, and be found by the good shepherd above like a lamb caught in a thicket, as Garcia Lorca presented it to us.

It is kind of like 'being called while doing beads' in the prayer that life itself is meant to be, and notice that this sale of Jude Thomas took place at 'high Noon' in the full radiance from above.

mountainman · 02-21-2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Could you at least identify the particular part of the Acts of Thomas that opposes the institution of slavery? I don't see it.

Acts of Thomas

Grant cites "Acts of Thomas" [82-83].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts of Thomas

The Ninth Act: Of the Wife of Charisius.

82 Now it chanced that a certain woman, the wife of Charisius, that was next unto the king, whose name was Mygdonia, came to see and behold the new name and the new God who was being proclaimed, and the new apostle who had come to visit their country: and she was carried by her own servants; and because of the great crowd and the narrow way they were not able to bring her near unto him. And she sent unto her husband to send her more to minister to her; and they came and approached her, pressing upon the people and beating them. And the apostle saw it and said to them: Wherefore overthrow ye them that come to hear the word, and are eager for it? and ye desire to be near me but are far off, as it was said of the multitude that came unto the Lord: Having eyes ye see not, and having ears ye hear not; and he said to the multitudes: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear; and: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

83 And looking upon them that carried her, he said unto them: This blessing and this admonition [Here and elsewhere there is a marked divergence between the texts of U and P, the Roman and Paris MSS.: Bonnet prints them separately. P is on the whole much shorter. Syr. differs from both. I follow U, but it is very corrupt.] which was promised unto them is for you that are heavily burdened now. Ye are they that carry burdens grievous to be borne, and are borne about by her command. And though ye are men, they lay on you loads as on brute beasts, for they that have authority over you think that ye are not men such as themselves, whether bond or free. For neither shall possessions profit the rich, nor poverty save the poor from judgement; nor have we received a commandment which we are not able to perform, nor hath he laid on us burdens grievous to be borne which we are not able to carry; nor building which men build; nor to hew stones and prepare houses, as your craftsmen do by their own knowledge. But this commandment have we received of the Lord, that that which pleaseth not us when it is done by another this we should not do to any other man

andrewcriddle · 02-23-2013, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Could you at least identify the particular part of the Acts of Thomas that opposes the institution of slavery? I don't see it.

Acts of Thomas

Grant cites "Acts of Thomas" [82-83].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts of Thomas

The Ninth Act: Of the Wife of Charisius.

82 Now it chanced that a certain woman, the wife of Charisius, that was next unto the king, whose name was Mygdonia, came to see and behold the new name and the new God who was being proclaimed, and the new apostle who had come to visit their country: and she was carried by her own servants; and because of the great crowd and the narrow way they were not able to bring her near unto him. And she sent unto her husband to send her more to minister to her; and they came and approached her, pressing upon the people and beating them. And the apostle saw it and said to them: Wherefore overthrow ye them that come to hear the word, and are eager for it? and ye desire to be near me but are far off, as it was said of the multitude that came unto the Lord: Having eyes ye see not, and having ears ye hear not; and he said to the multitudes: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear; and: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

83 And looking upon them that carried her, he said unto them: This blessing and this admonition [Here and elsewhere there is a marked divergence between the texts of U and P, the Roman and Paris MSS.: Bonnet prints them separately. P is on the whole much shorter. Syr. differs from both. I follow U, but it is very corrupt.] which was promised unto them is for you that are heavily burdened now. Ye are they that carry burdens grievous to be borne, and are borne about by her command. And though ye are men, they lay on you loads as on brute beasts, for they that have authority over you think that ye are not men such as themselves, whether bond or free. For neither shall possessions profit the rich, nor poverty save the poor from judgement; nor have we received a commandment which we are not able to perform, nor hath he laid on us burdens grievous to be borne which we are not able to carry; nor building which men build; nor to hew stones and prepare houses, as your craftsmen do by their own knowledge. But this commandment have we received of the Lord, that that which pleaseth not us when it is done by another this we should not do to any other man

This seems to be condemming the abuse of slaves more than opposing the institution of slavery as such.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 02-23-2013, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Could you at least identify the particular part of the Acts of Thomas that opposes the institution of slavery? I don't see it.

Acts of Thomas

Grant cites "Acts of Thomas" [82-83].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts of Thomas

The Ninth Act: Of the Wife of Charisius.

82 Now it chanced that a certain woman, the wife of Charisius, that was next unto the king, whose name was Mygdonia, came to see and behold the new name and the new God who was being proclaimed, and the new apostle who had come to visit their country: and she was carried by her own servants; and because of the great crowd and the narrow way they were not able to bring her near unto him. And she sent unto her husband to send her more to minister to her; and they came and approached her, pressing upon the people and beating them. And the apostle saw it and said to them: Wherefore overthrow ye them that come to hear the word, and are eager for it? and ye desire to be near me but are far off, as it was said of the multitude that came unto the Lord: Having eyes ye see not, and having ears ye hear not; and he said to the multitudes: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear; and: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

83 And looking upon them that carried her, he said unto them: This blessing and this admonition [Here and elsewhere there is a marked divergence between the texts of U and P, the Roman and Paris MSS.: Bonnet prints them separately. P is on the whole much shorter. Syr. differs from both. I follow U, but it is very corrupt.] which was promised unto them is for you that are heavily burdened now. Ye are they that carry burdens grievous to be borne, and are borne about by her command. And though ye are men, they lay on you loads as on brute beasts, for they that have authority over you think that ye are not men such as themselves, whether bond or free. For neither shall possessions profit the rich, nor poverty save the poor from judgement; nor have we received a commandment which we are not able to perform, nor hath he laid on us burdens grievous to be borne which we are not able to carry; nor building which men build; nor to hew stones and prepare houses, as your craftsmen do by their own knowledge. But this commandment have we received of the Lord, that that which pleaseth not us when it is done by another this we should not do to any other man

This seems to be condemming the abuse of slaves more than opposing the institution of slavery as such.

For a start the OP is the assertion of Grant.

He provided the citation [82-83].

I bolded the section that I think he is drawing upon, although I could be mistaken.

The context is that Apostle Thomas in India giving a talk (or is it a satsang?)

The woman Mygdonia is being transported by her slaves and cannot get up to the front of the crowd and eyeball Thomas.

So she asks her husband Charisius to send in some reinforcements - musclebound slaves - to clear a path the Apostle which they attempt to do.

Thomas abuses the rough stuff (from the extra slave brigade) and then addresses the slaves that were carrying Mygdonia.

The bolded bit is where I see the support in Grant's claim.

The slaves were of course continually abused as slaves. These ones were carrying around Mygdonia. They could have been in the fields or in the mines or rowing boats or carrying stone or even rostered to appear at the local gladiatorial games.

There is no question slaves were abused - slavery is an abuse of human freedom, and I think that this is what was placed into the mouth of the Gnostic Thomas.

Quote:

And though ye are men, they lay on you loads as on brute beasts,
for they that have authority over you think that ye are not men
such as themselves, whether bond or free.

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02-21-2013, 04:31 AM	#3
Tenorikuma Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Japan Posts: 156	Weren't the Essenes supposedly opposed to slavery?

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