No Robots

Christ, as a typical mystic, identified himself with Beingness, the Father. Paul is guilty of a degree of theomorphizing.

gnosis92

ordinarily i would not care, but the op asked a question, i was responding to
"Assuming Jesus existed, is there evidence in the bible that he thought he was God incarnate? Did he say so?"

Gamera

Well, we have shifting goals here.

Is the topic post asking whether the texts as we have them indicated that Jesus identified himself as divine. The answer is yes.

It seems now the topic has slipped into, are those passages "original" or part of some later redaction. The answer to this is nobody knows and nobody can ever say.

We take historical texts as we get them, not as we want them.

I would note that if Jesus had not claimed his status as diety, you would have expected Peter and James (both witnesses to Jesus's ministry) to have made some protest to Paul's clear claims that he was God. Indeed, you would have expected a flurry of epistles denouncing Paul's "perverson" of Jesus message. Not one such epistle exists nor is there any indication of any such disagreement. So either (a) it didn't happen because Peter and James heard Jesus claim his own divinity or (b) the Christian federal police hunted down every ms that ever existed evidencing this purported disagreement and destroyed them.

Which is more likely?

Solo

Would that be the royal "we" ?


Jesus as a Jew would have had no idea how to claim his status as diety. Nor did Paul made this claim for the "man" Jesus, with whom he wanted no truck (1 Cor 2:2). Peter and James (Z) did not keep in touch with Paul and even if they thought his gospel perverse (it was only preached to Gentiles), they would not have likely entered into intellectual exchanges with him. Being illiterate village folk, they would have possessed no theological arguments to stand up to Paul's.

Neither is nearly as likely as (c) Jesus did not claim to be divine, and heavy redaction of earlier traditions about him did take place in the gospels

Jiri

buckshot23

Don't you think that forgiving sins is a pretty significant action for a first century Jew?

Gamera

:

No, its the scholarly "we." We get texts as they come to us. A text is a text. It exists. Everything else is just speculation.

What evidence do you have of this? The idea that because one is a Jew it would be impossible for one to claim diety seems absurd on its face. For instance, a madman who was a Jew might make the claim. Or a diety who was a Jew might make the claim. The condition of being a Jew simply doesn't preclude the result, unless you use circular reasoning.

Paul's claim to Jesus' divine status is amply evidence in his epistles.

As to Peter and James, it was a small world back then. The idea that Paul could have been preaching that Jesus was God and Peter and James knew nothing about it seems very unlikely.

Peter may have been semi-literate. James clearly was not. He appears to be a well-read Helenized literate Jew from what little we know of him. In any case, the fact remains that they were witnesses and you can sight no evidence whatsoever that they disagreed with Paul's verson of Jesus.

And you base that on what? Why is it less likely Jesus claimed that he was God than that others claimed he was? We know that latter occured and that itself is a farfetched claim. So if Paul made such a farfetched claim, why couldn't Jesus? Are you just assuming Paul is farfetched and Jesus isn't? Based on what?

Gamera

Well, the detractors have to claim these are all interpolations, redactions, and fabrications of very creative authors, who harmonized their work in wonderful ways, and then disposed of the unharmonized mss, in one of the greatest police actions in history.

Matthew 9:2 - And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven."

Matthew 9:5 - For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'?

Mark 2:5 - And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:9 - Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise, take up your pallet and walk'?

Luke 5:20 - And when he saw their faith he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."

Luke 5:23 - Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'?

Luke 7:48 - And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

JoeWallack

JW:
No, but his Jewish mother thought he was. Even as a Member of the Loyal Opposition though I have to confess that based on Observation and Experience Jesus currently seems to have exactly the same amount of power as God.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Loomis

Does that mean he could be stopped with chariots of iron?

Loomis

If the Jesus character was supposed to be God incarnate then wouldn’t there be a few episodes where he flew on the backs of cherubs and blew smoke out his nostrils?