Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 04-12-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

They were historical, not historicized. Do you have some indication that the first people who know Alexander thought that he was a deity - walking through walls, etc? It was only after they died that they were elevated to deityhood.

Likewise, what evidence is there that the very first people who knew Jesus thought he was a deity?

Toto · 04-12-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Likewise, what evidence is there that the very first people who knew Jesus thought he was a deity?

We don't know that anyone knew Jesus by their own writings. The earliest Christian documents are supposedly Paul's letters, and his Lord Jesus Christ is a divine entity.

ChandraRama · 04-12-2006, 07:23 PM

http://hamsa.org/

Thomas is a bogus claim by the church.

Chris Weimer · 04-12-2006, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

We don't know that anyone knew Jesus by their own writings. The earliest Christian documents are supposedly Paul's letters, and his Lord Jesus Christ is a divine entity.

Is it? How so?

Furthermore, that they thought Jesus was god is a worthless argument to begin with. Antinous is a perfect example of such.

Roger Pearse · 04-13-2006, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I would be very dubious about any claims of historical authenticity. There are claims that Jesus traveled to India in the missing years (age 12 - 30), also that he survived the cross and then went to India, and was buried in India, or Japan. . .

I think that this sentence will unintentionally confuse people. There are two things here:

1. The claims recorded in ancient literature and known in churches in Kerala today that the apostle Thomas evangelised India.

2. The claims invented by Victorian fraudsters such as Notovitch of the 'Jesus in India' type.

The latter has nothing to do with the former, surely?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 04-13-2006, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChandraRama

http://hamsa.org/
Thomas is a bogus claim by the church.

This site appears to be a Hindu hate-site. Since Hindus are the majority and control all the power in India, while the Christians are a tiny minority, I think we need to be careful. Encouraged by material like this, extremists there carry out atrocities on the Christian minority (burning sleeping Australian missionaries and their families alive, etc). Are you quite comfortable with referencing this sort of site? I wouldn't be.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle · 04-13-2006, 05:02 AM

It might be an extremist site but it does seem to be reporting the catholic encyclopedia correctly.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14658b.htm

The xianities of the east are a fascinating subject by themselves! They are not the same as our western flavours!

The Jesus Sutras : Rediscovering the Lost Scrolls of Taoist Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk)

David B · 04-13-2006, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Alexander the Great, lots of Caesars, lots of Pharoahs are pretty well historiicised.

David B

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

They were historical, not historicized. Do you have some indication that the first people who know Alexander thought that he was a deity - walking through walls, etc? It was only after they died that they were elevated to deityhood.

No, not in the case of Alexander. Some caesars and pharoahs, though, I thought were regarded as gods in their lifetime. No?

David B

Chris Weimer · 04-13-2006, 05:13 AM

Both the Pharoah's and the emporers of China and Japan were regarded in their lifetime as God's. Julius Caesar was regarded as a God immediately after his death, and Augustus was also considered God before his death.

judge · 04-13-2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

It is an interesting tradition but I wonder what evidence exists for their origin claims...documents..artifacts..lists of early leaders, etc.... Are there any?

Along the same lines is this list of Alexandrian (Coptic) popes, found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coptic_Popes: Anyone know anything about the support for this tradition?

I doubt there is much hard evidence but this sort of tradition is usual.

See the list of COE patriarchs, including Thomas

Quote:

Tooma Shlikha (St. Thomas), who after establishing Church in Mesopotamia, Persia and their environment, went to India

COE patriarchs

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04-12-2006, 07:23 PM	#13
ChandraRama Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: US Posts: 107	http://hamsa.org/ Thomas is a bogus claim by the church.

04-13-2006, 05:02 AM	#17
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	It might be an extremist site but it does seem to be reporting the catholic encyclopedia correctly. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14658b.htm The xianities of the east are a fascinating subject by themselves! They are not the same as our western flavours! The Jesus Sutras : Rediscovering the Lost Scrolls of Taoist Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk)

04-13-2006, 05:13 AM	#19
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Both the Pharoah's and the emporers of China and Japan were regarded in their lifetime as God's. Julius Caesar was regarded as a God immediately after his death, and Augustus was also considered God before his death.

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