Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 02-02-2013, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldly

do we know if jtB really existed or is he myth too?

:thumbs:

Of course he did because myth is real, which only requires the rigth definition of real to be real, wherein only Truth and Beauty is real.

Chili · 02-02-2013, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Later gospels were less and less comfortable portraying Jesus' humanness, once the basic fact of his earthly existence had been established.

The earlier Gospels that claimed Jesus was on earth also claimed he was the Son of a Ghost. The Father of Jesus was ESTABLISHED as a Holy Ghost.

In gMatthew and gLuke it was ESTABLISHED that John baptised the Son of a Ghost and in gMark, after Jesus was Baptised by John it was ESTABLISHED that he used to walk on water in the night.

See Matthew 1, Luke 1 and Mark 6.

Yes but this water was living water set aside already in Gen.1:9 to give us dry land to walk on by day, for which the sun and moon were created to be our guide while in absense of the light that already was prior to life as in Gen.1:3.

So Jesus here was a 'knowledge walker' inside the celestial light. We all do that do some extent and do not go 'left-right, left-right' as we walk to prevent us from getting our legs in a knot as we walk.

Tenorikuma · 02-03-2013, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Later gospels were less and less comfortable portraying Jesus' humanness, once the basic fact of his earthly existence had been established.

The earlier Gospels that claimed Jesus was on earth also claimed he was the Son of a Ghost. The Father of Jesus was ESTABLISHED as a Holy Ghost.

The earliest gospels (Mark and Marcion's gospel) had Jesus simply appear or else descend straight from Heaven. Later Gospels felt it necessary to give the demigod his proper miraculous conception like all the other Greek and Roman heroes had.

sotto voce · 02-03-2013, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Later gospels were less and less comfortable portraying Jesus' humanness, once the basic fact of his earthly existence had been established.

The earlier Gospels that claimed Jesus was on earth also claimed he was the Son of a Ghost. The Father of Jesus was ESTABLISHED as a Holy Ghost.

The earliest gospels (Mark and Marcion's gospel) had Jesus simply appear or else descend straight from Heaven. Later Gospels felt it necessary to give the demigod his proper miraculous conception like all the other Greek and Roman heroes had.

Greeks and Romans may have got the idea from Israelites.

aa5874 · 02-03-2013, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

The earliest gospels (Mark and Marcion's gospel) had Jesus simply appear or else descend straight from Heaven. Later Gospels felt it necessary to give the demigod his proper miraculous conception like all the other Greek and Roman heroes had.

The short gMark, the earliest Canonised story of Jesus does not say that Jesus descended straight from heaven. Before Jesus was baptised in gMark, he was in Nazareth.

The earliest Non-Canonised Apologetic writing about the appearance of Jesus on earth, Aristides' 'Apology', claimed that God came down from heaven and lived in the belly of a Virgin.

Aristides' 'Apology'

Quote:

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.

This is taught in the gospel...

The earliest writer to mention Marcion's teachings claimed Marcion did preach ANOTHER God and ANOTHER Son--NOT Jesus.

It is extremely important to understand that Marcion's Son of God was NOT Jesus of Nazareth who was Baptised by John.

Marcion's Son of God had NO body--No Flesh- that could be Baptized and was Not a product of Hebrew Scripture or the product of the God of the Jews.

Justin's 'First Apology'

Quote:

And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son.

And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us...

Justin, a contemporary of Marcion, is corroborated by Ephrem the Syrian.

Ephrem's 'Against Marcion III'

Quote:

These are two things from which the Marcionites have deflected, for they are not willing to call our Lord the Maker, nor (do they admit) that He was (sent) by the Maker....

Hippolytus' 'Refutation of All Heresies'

Quote:

..The principal heresy of Marcion, and (the one of his) which is most free from admixture (with other heresies), is that which has its system formed out of the theory concerning the good and bad (God). Now this, it has been manifested by us, belongs to Empedocles.

You will NOT find that Marcion's Son of God was Baptised by John.

Marcion's Son of God was NOT Jewish. Marcion's Son of God was a product of Empedocles--Non Jewish writings.

Chili · 02-03-2013, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Later gospels were less and less comfortable portraying Jesus' humanness, once the basic fact of his earthly existence had been established.

The earlier Gospels that claimed Jesus was on earth also claimed he was the Son of a Ghost. The Father of Jesus was ESTABLISHED as a Holy Ghost.

In gMatthew and gLuke it was ESTABLISHED that John baptised the Son of a Ghost and in gMark, after Jesus was Baptised by John it was ESTABLISHED that he used to walk on water in the night.

See Matthew 1, Luke 1 and Mark 6.

How can Jesus be son of a ghost if Christ was born!!! Jesus had no father unless you now tell me that they were twins. . . with John being the real Christ as identified at the foot of the cross by Jesus on the cross.

So then what is all this Jesus stuff about?

Chili · 02-03-2013, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Later gospels were less and less comfortable portraying Jesus' humanness, once the basic fact of his earthly existence had been established.

The earlier Gospels that claimed Jesus was on earth also claimed he was the Son of a Ghost. The Father of Jesus was ESTABLISHED as a Holy Ghost.

The earliest gospels (Mark and Marcion's gospel) had Jesus simply appear or else descend straight from Heaven. Later Gospels felt it necessary to give the demigod his proper miraculous conception like all the other Greek and Roman heroes had.

Jesus was never in heaven but was the fiery revolving sword stationned at the gate of heaven. There is a difference here to be noted, with all respect to Jesus, but was not in heaven just the same or he would know who was there and that would eliminate the massacre and Cana event as opposites. The woman was there (see her Canticle) whom Jesus did not know, i.e. "who is my mother!"

Chili · 02-03-2013, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

The earliest gospels (Mark and Marcion's gospel) had Jesus simply appear or else descend straight from Heaven. Later Gospels felt it necessary to give the demigod his proper miraculous conception like all the other Greek and Roman heroes had.

The short gMark, the earliest Canonised story of Jesus does not say that Jesus descended straight from heaven. Before Jesus was baptised in gMark, he was in Nazareth.

The earliest Non-Canonised Apologetic writing about the appearance of Jesus on earth, Aristides' 'Apology', claimed that God came down from heaven and lived in the belly of a Virgin.

Aristides' 'Apology'

Quote:

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.

This is taught in the gospel...

The earliest writer to mention Marcion's teachings claimed Marcion did preach ANOTHER God and ANOTHER Son--NOT Jesus.

It is extremely important to understand that Marcion's Son of God was NOT Jesus of Nazareth who was Baptised by John.

Marcion's Son of God had NO body--No Flesh- that could be Baptized and was Not a product of Hebrew Scripture or the product of the God of the Jews.

Justin's 'First Apology'

Quote:

And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son.

And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us...

Justin, a contemporary of Marcion, is corroborated by Ephrem the Syrian.

Ephrem's 'Against Marcion III'

Quote:

These are two things from which the Marcionites have deflected, for they are not willing to call our Lord the Maker, nor (do they admit) that He was (sent) by the Maker....

Hippolytus' 'Refutation of All Heresies'

Quote:

..The principal heresy of Marcion, and (the one of his) which is most free from admixture (with other heresies), is that which has its system formed out of the theory concerning the good and bad (God). Now this, it has been manifested by us, belongs to Empedocles.

You will NOT find that Marcion's Son of God was Baptised by John.

Marcion's Son of God was NOT Jewish. Marcion's Son of God was a product of Empedocles--Non Jewish writings.

And Mark's Son of God was not Jewish or John would have had a Hebrew cloak. Mark's Jesus was a wild-man who was baptized by John who dunked anything like Billy Graham would: just come on down and confess your sins and you will be saved, he said, and God will remember your sins no more (as long as you can live with them as 'saved sinner,' to be sure).

And please note that Mark's Jesus kind of missed the mark and went back to Galilee instead, for another 40 years and die there nonetheless.

The difference here is that Marcion picked the wrong Jesus, who indeed was not the word made flesh, as in just 'called' but not 'chosen' by God himself.

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