show_no_mercy

I don't know anyone - let alone any atheists - who claim that since there isn't any "paper" from the time period of Jesus that this means Jesus didn't exist.

In fact off the top of my head, there's papyrus from the time period of Jesus (the Dead Sea Scrolls) so anyone making this claim is just not correct.

Rick Van Vliet

You need to get out more. It's a constant refrain.

Then you shouldn't have a problem producing Dead Sea Scrolls about the time and place of Jesus.

All is silence.

Dogfish

And, of course, we would be skeptical of any attributions to anyone that far back.

show_no_mercy

I have a hunch that you're simply misrepresenting someone's argument.

lol

So you want me to break into, say, Tel Aviv university and get you one of the DSS manuscripts/fragments that dates to the first century?

Dogfish

Again with the "All is silence" crap. Is this suppose to be an insult, or something akin to "Q.E.D."?

Toto

On the contrary, you are the only one who introduced the idea that a lack of paper from that time means that Jesus didn't exist. Amost all of the militant atheists here have a more sophisticated view of historical sources.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden in caves in 70 CE, most likely to save them from the advancing Roman army. Carbon dating places them before the time of Jesus. It has always been somewhat puzzling or embarrassing to Christians that there are no documents in the DSS collection that mention Jesus or Christianity. Eisenman's attempt to find Jesus and Paul described there has not been well received.

Why do you keep repeating this mantra? Are you trying to convince yourself that no one has an answer to your questions?

Perhaps there are none so deaf as those who will not hear.

bacht

Well, he doesn't elevate the Zealots in JW to a "philosophy" but he certainly points our their involvement both before and during the revolt. I wonder if the inclusion of Simon the Zealot in some disciple lists is a hint: wasn't Jesus of Nazareth in fact being presented as a "good" Galilean, a peacelover, in contrast to the radical family of Judas the Galilean?

Yep, I wouldn't doubt that Mark et al had Josephus in front of them on their writing tables, along with the LXX, and maybe some Hellenistic stories. Personally I doubt there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, but there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to reach a conclusion either way.

Rick Van Vliet

Oh heck no, the quote from one, or perhaps an expert referring to the document, or even the name of the document.

The Dead Sea Scrolls have been public since Robinson (who dates Thomas to mid first century) released them to the world, to end the censorship.

Unless, of course, that knowledge such things exist made it into your head by ESP or a secret message from flying saucers....

Rick Van Vliet

No, it means I'm saying I'm certain no examples to the contrary will be produced, having been through the elementary fact 1000 times, including with people that would be embarrassed to deliberately act stupid.

Rick Van Vliet

Correct!!! Real progress.

Let's see now, they were (overwhelmingly) from before Jesus, according to just about everyone except Eisenman, and they don't say anything about Jesus. Correct too. So, what are you confused about? You figure they should mention Jesus, even though they weren't from the time and place of Jesus precisely like I said

Demonstrating my prediction, that "all would be silence" when it came to examples from the time and date of Jesus was true.

I could claim to be a prophet, but having been through this elementary exercise of what evidence exists from the time and place of Jesus 10,000 times before, I can't claim any credit.