Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aChristian · 07-22-2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Perhaps if you look at the context:

Quote:

2 Surely I am more stupid than any man,
And do not have the understanding of a man.
3 I neither learned wisdom
Nor have knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
If you know?
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

It looks to me as if v4 just tries to say that no human being can know god. Thus the "his" and "son" in 4e just refer to a human, to wit the human who has not done the things above, and whose name, nor the name of his son, you can therefore give. The "His" and "Son" are then erroneously (and Christianly) capitalized in the translation (NKJV).

Gerard Stafleu

Or, vss 2,3 describe the author's ignorance when compared to God, verse 4 describes God's majesty, and verse 5 encourages you to listen to the pure words of the majestic God. This would make the capitalizations correct. Also, in Proverbs the context often does not extend outside of a single verse.

mg01 · 07-23-2008, 05:40 AM

I tend to find that the NIV is about the worst at selectively translating into English to spin some sort of Christian interpretation of Hebrew passages. I'm not very familiar with the NKJV, but in the passages I've researched from the NIV I usually see the NKJV, probably based from the KJV itself, tends to follow. (Actually the NIV spin probably originated there anyway.) The NRSV is supposed to be not quite as "biased", but that's not always the case.

I remember in particular I was seeking out linguistic puns where origin tales of some sort or another ended with either a person or place being named such-and-such because of the tale where the Hebrew name plays on some key term. (Most are J and E in Gen,Ex,Num but others exist in Josh,Judg,Sam,Kings.) Anyhoo, almost in variably the english translation for the key term in the passage from which the Hebrew name is derived uses an english synonym rather than what would be the more direct translation. The effect reduces the chance an english reader would pick up on the joke from the author where as in Hebrew it's perfectly clear.

gstafleu · 07-23-2008, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Perhaps if you look at the context:

Quote:

2 Surely I am more stupid than any man,
And do not have the understanding of a man.
3 I neither learned wisdom
Nor have knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
If you know?
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

It looks to me as if v4 just tries to say that no human being can know god. Thus the "his" and "son" in 4e just refer to a human, to wit the human who has not done the things above, and whose name, nor the name of his son, you can therefore give. The "His" and "Son" are then erroneously (and Christianly) capitalized in the translation (NKJV).

Gerard Stafleu

Or, vss 2,3 describe the author's ignorance when compared to God, verse 4 describes God's majesty, and verse 5 encourages you to listen to the pure words of the majestic God. This would make the capitalizations correct. Also, in Proverbs the context often does not extend outside of a single verse.

Maybe so, but in this case it is a bit difficult to see "2 Surely I am more stupid than any man, And do not have the understanding of a man" as a stand-alone proverb. It seems to introduce the other verses. Also, your interpretation has, I think, some difficulties with "His Son." Who is that son? Going by Jeffrey's Temptation article, an answer might be "Israel," but then why ask the question? The son-havingness of humans, on the other hand, is unproblematic, so isn't my interpretation then more straight forward?

Gerard Stafleu

aChristian · 07-23-2008, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Or, vss 2,3 describe the author's ignorance when compared to God, verse 4 describes God's majesty, and verse 5 encourages you to listen to the pure words of the majestic God. This would make the capitalizations correct. Also, in Proverbs the context often does not extend outside of a single verse.

Maybe so, but in this case it is a bit difficult to see "2 Surely I am more stupid than any man, And do not have the understanding of a man" as a stand-alone proverb. It seems to introduce the other verses. Also, your interpretation has, I think, some difficulties with "His Son." Who is that son? Going by Jeffrey's Temptation article, an answer might be "Israel," but then why ask the question? The son-havingness of humans, on the other hand, is unproblematic, so isn't my interpretation then more straight forward?

Gerard Stafleu

I agree it does seem to flow with some context for several verses. As far as the son being Israel, that doesn't fit at all. It appears to be a partial revelation of the second person of the Trinity, similar to Psalm 2.

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07-23-2008, 05:40 AM	#12
mg01 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: USA Posts: 197	I tend to find that the NIV is about the worst at selectively translating into English to spin some sort of Christian interpretation of Hebrew passages. I'm not very familiar with the NKJV, but in the passages I've researched from the NIV I usually see the NKJV, probably based from the KJV itself, tends to follow. (Actually the NIV spin probably originated there anyway.) The NRSV is supposed to be not quite as "biased", but that's not always the case. I remember in particular I was seeking out linguistic puns where origin tales of some sort or another ended with either a person or place being named such-and-such because of the tale where the Hebrew name plays on some key term. (Most are J and E in Gen,Ex,Num but others exist in Josh,Judg,Sam,Kings.) Anyhoo, almost in variably the english translation for the key term in the passage from which the Hebrew name is derived uses an english synonym rather than what would be the more direct translation. The effect reduces the chance an english reader would pick up on the joke from the author where as in Hebrew it's perfectly clear.

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