Freethought & Rationalism Archive

knotted paragon · 03-17-2006, 08:03 PM

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rhutchin
We should say, the Wager eliminates unbelief as an option except in that unique, contrived situation where unbelief is imagined to provide an escape from eternal torment. It is a goofy position, but if we don't allow for it, people start whining.

kp
We should say, the Wager eliminates Christianity as an option except in that unique, contrived situation where Christianity is imagined to provide an escape from eternal torment. It is a goofy position, but if we don't allow for it, rhutchin starts whining.

rhutchin
Can you explain how the Wager would eliminate Christianity as an option.

Did you notice that all I did was replace the word unbelief with the word Christianity and you considered it an attack on your worldview? Certainly, I can explain - worshipping Shiva eliminates Christianity as an option. Unbelief eliminates Christianity as an option. Islam eliminates Christianity as an option. Christianity is only an option if one already believes in Yahweh. So, again, the Wager is worthless since it changes nothing. Intelligent, rational people are not threatened by make believe hells rhutchin.

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The Wager concludes that belief is preferable to unbelief if a person seeks to escape eternal torment.

Negative rhutchin. That is your conclusion; it has no bearing for rational people who lack belief in goat herder superstitions.

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Belief includes Christianity. To exclude Christianity, the Wager would have to exclude belief as an option to escape eternal torment. How do you see the Wager doing that?

Belief includes Christianity if one is credulous enough to already believe in ancient goat herder mythology. You equate belief to Christianity and again expose your psychosis since it has been explained to you many, many times that there are an infinite number of mental states that equate to belief, not just Christianity, and all of them are equally as likely to result in escape from eternal torment. I could, if I wished, defecate on a bible every evening in front of a cross, and stand just as much chance of escaping eternal torment as you. If one is not an ignorant goat herder superstition believer, then Christianity is nothing more than another member of an infinite set of equally unlikely beliefs about the afterlife or lack thereof. Rational people are therefore left with the default position of unbelief.

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We know that belief in Yahweh provides an escape from eternal torment based on the evidence contained in the Bible. Belief in Yahweh results in eternal torment according to the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and maybe other sources. The true outcome depends on which source is true. Unbelief in any god without evidence is irrational.

We know no such thing rhutchin. Some credulous people who believe in ancient goat herder superstitions think that they might escape eternal torment, but they are just deluded, since there is no evidence one way or another. Unbelief in any god is the only rational mental state since there is no evidence of any god's existence.

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Here is an expanded explanation of the premises to tie them together.

The Wager's basic assumptions are:
1. A person does not know whether God exists, because no one can prove that God exists.
2. No one can prove that God does not exist, so no one can conclude that God does not exist, and
3. Because no one can prove that God exists or God does not exist, no one can exclude the possibility that God exists and that He will hold people accountable for their actions and judge them. Thus a person follows his natural desires to escape eternal torment.

You changed nothing - certainly not the ongoing illustration of your psychosis. Your expanded explanation fails due to the exact same ideas in the last post - namely, plug the words Allah, Shiva, Osiris, crystal power, or unbelief into your explanation, and they are all equally likely. Rational people are still not threatened by make-believe hell, so your last sentence is still just so much babble.

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The Wager has nothing to do with that which a person believes.

Then why did you say this above?

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The Wager concludes that belief is preferable to unbelief if a person seeks to escape eternal torment.

You are confused and contradicting yourself again rhutchin, and no wonder, considering that you irrationally and emotionally believe in ancient goat herder superstitions.

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The Wager says that the rational action is for a person to seek to escape eternal torment, but it does not tell a person what to do to escape eternal torment. Correct deliberation of the Wager results in a person deciding to believe in something that will provide an escape from eternal torment. That belief may be belief in god X and unbelief in god Y, or belief in some other system to escape eternal torment.

The only people threatened by eternal torment are those foolish enough to believe in ancient goat herder superstitions. Rational people are not threatened by ancient goat herder superstitions rhutchin. Your fetish to see damned souls eternally tormented on heavenly pay-per-view is no more likely to happen than the Islamist suicide bomber's belief that he'll soon be enjoying 72 virgins courtesy of Allah. You are both equally deluded.

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I believe you. Twenty years ago, you told people that you were a Christian; today, you tell people that you are not a Christian. OK. Twenty years ago I told people I was a Yankees fan and today I tell people that I am an Orioles fan. Big deal. It just means that twenty years ago you went to church and today you don’t.

Hopefully sometime within the next twenty years you will realize that your belief in ancient goat herder superstitions is nothing more than a psychotic delusion and be able to say the same.

rhutchin · 03-18-2006, 03:45 AM

Quote:

enemigo
In order for the Wager to tell me that I should seek escape from eternal torment, I must first, before even considering the "logic" of the Wager, believe that the Bible is evidence that God & eternal torment actually exist. If I already believe that though, the Wager is entirely superfluous, and if I don't already believe that, then it doesn't tell me to seek escape from eternal torment.

Pascal would have been proud of you.

Give the boy an A+.

rhutchin · 03-18-2006, 04:02 AM

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Jack the Bodiless
Similarly, if the magic leprechaun mascot of the Yankees (OK, I don't know what their actual mascot is) charmed you into being a Yankees fan, you couldn't now be an Orioles fan. How could you, a mere pitiful man, undo what a leprechaun's magic has done?

Of course, you actually CAN change your allegiance, because there is no leprechaun.

Here endeth the lesson.

enemigo
Jack, just face it.. you were not a true Scotsman.

While your understanding of what defines a Christian is the beliefs that a person holds about Jesus, rhutchin's definition consists of being chosen by God, a definition which presupposes the existence of God. So, since rhutchin knows the will of this God that he presupposes to exist, he is in a much better position than you to know whether you were a Christian, regardless of what you truly believed at the time.

Ah! But what is a true Scotsman?

Anyone who believes that a Christian is defined by beliefs that a person holds about Jesus has, at best, a superficial understanding of what it means to be a Christian. A Christian might be described as a person who holds certain beliefs about Jesus but that does not define a Christian. Even an atheist can believe that Jesus did everything described in the NT and still not be a Christian. An atheist could preach powerful sermons about Jesus using the infomation in the NT and not have to be a Christian to do so. An atheist could study the Bible, witness to others, and do many good works and not be a Christian. The JWs do this all the time and there is no reason to think that they are Christians.

The will of God is expressed clearly in the Bible and anyone can read the Bible and discover that will.

rhutchin · 03-18-2006, 04:12 AM

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rhutchin
Now, if you had claimed that God had saved you and therefore, you were a Christian, but then you up and decided to unsave yourself, then you would never have been a Christian (even if you believed you were). How could you, a mere pitiful man, undo anything God has done?

OrbitV2
That argument doesn't work unless you can prove that your particular God exists and does save his devotees. Since you are not able to do that it's reasonable accept that ex-Xians did at one time believe God existed and that they were saved, as you do now, but later descovered that the whole thing was fake. The fact that you haven't yet arrived at that obvious conclusion is irrelavant

If God exists, then He exists regardless whether I can prove it. Many people call themselves ex-Christians because they went through some emotional period in there lives where they behaved all spiritual and did all kinds of "spiritual" things (like going to church, really studying the Bible, witnessing, and always telling themselves that they were a Christian). Eventually they realized that they were fakes, decided that it was not getting them anything, and starting being themselves. People are like that.

Hedshaker · 03-18-2006, 05:29 AM

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Originally Posted by OrbitV2

That argument doesn't work unless you can prove that your particular God exists and does save his devotees. Since you are not able to do that it's reasonable accept that ex-Xians did at one time believe God existed and that they were saved, as you do now, but later descovered that the whole thing was fake. The fact that you haven't yet arrived at that obvious conclusion is irrelavant

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Originally Posted by rhutchin

If God exists, then He exists regardless whether I can prove it.

Therefore, since (as you admit above), you cannot prove your particular god does exist and saves his devotees, the argument does not work because your argument relies on a presupossesition not a given fact.

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Many people call themselves ex-Christians because they went through some emotional period in there lives where they behaved all spiritual and did all kinds of "spiritual" things (like going to church, really studying the Bible, witnessing, and always telling themselves that they were a Christian).

Exactly. So they were once precisely were you are now, ie they were Christians.

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Eventually they realized that they were fakes, decided that it was not getting them anything, and starting being themselves.

You're very close. It was their religion they discovered to be fake. It happens to honest truth seekers all the time. You may wake up to it yourself some day.

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People are like that.

Yourself included

Johnny Skeptic · 03-18-2006, 07:59 AM

Message to rhutchin: Please reply to my post #2187.

JPD · 03-18-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The will of God is expressed clearly in the Bible and anyone can read the Bible and discover that will.

God appears to be nothing superior to the jealous and protective head of a tribe. There are no lessons that I could take from your God with regards to behaviour - he is not in any way a shining example of intelligence or love.

rhutchin · 03-18-2006, 01:55 PM

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Originally Posted by JPD

God appears to be nothing superior to the jealous and protective head of a tribe. There are no lessons that I could take from your God with regards to behaviour - he is not in any way a shining example of intelligence or love.

The key word here is "appears." A limited reading of the Bible could get a conclusion like this.

aa5874 · 03-18-2006, 06:46 PM

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Originally Posted by rhutchin

The key word here is "appears." A limited reading of the Bible could get a conclusion like this.

The Christian Bible is totally fictitious. I have proven it, after research.
No -one can identify these Christian Gods after millions of years. Jesus has not, on his own, reveal himself to anyone. He has not spoken to anyone, nor has he healed anybody. Not even the Roman Catholic Church use the Gods when selecting the POPE, they use the ballot box in secrecy.

Rhutchin, can you tell me which Eternal Torment does Pascal's Wager refer to? As you can imagine there are billions of GODS to believe in. Rhucthin if you tell what you believe, there will be billions of people who will differ.

Belief is subjective. Belief in the unknown, the unobserved and the unidentified is tantamount to absurdity. If Pascal's Wager is valid under that basis, then I am Jesus Christ.

rainbow walking · 03-18-2006, 08:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following Scriptures

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Psalm 100:3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Obviously, the Bible puts great emphasis on the God of the Bible being the creator of the universe, and with good reason, for if the God of the Bible did not create the universe, then his enforcement of rules of his own choosing is no more legitimate than the enforcement of rules that are mandated by any other self-proclaimed dictator of the universe. It is interesting to note that even if God is able to enforce his rules on earth, there is not any evidence at all that he can successfully enforce his rules throughout the universe.

Why do Christians limit creative ability to the God of the Bible? Who knows how many advanced aliens there might be who have similar abilities? How does one tell the difference between a God and an advanced alien? If a jet plane had flown over Jerusalem in 75 A.D., surely the majority of Christians would have believed that the jet plane had supernatural origins, and they would have been wrong.

I request that Christians answer the following question:

Why do you believe that the God of the Bible created the universe?

It is my position that the authority of the Bible depends completely upon the claim that God created the universe, and since the claim is completely non-verifiable by any tangible means, the Bible does not have any legitimate authority whatsoever.

Oky I'll nibble. What has this to do with Pascal's Wager or the resurrection?

03-18-2006, 07:59 AM	#2206
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Pascal's Wager started as The Resurrection is irrelevant Message to rhutchin: Please reply to my post #2187.

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