Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rlogan · 10-21-2003, 04:49 PM

NOGO: using word for my editor here:
________________________
"My claim is that the author of Matthew thought that you should be awed at the coincidence if numbers. However anyone reading the OT will realize that the coincidence is fabricated."
_________________________

Exactly. That is why I am so disappointed. How could Matthew construct and rely on such a farce? Serious question, NOGO - for example, was he relying on illiteracy in the congregations, or ignorance from a lack of sufficient oral tradition? Talk about wicked!

_____________________
"In the context of this discussion I would call it the number of days which God took to create the world. Get it? This God does things in multiples of seven - the magic number seven."
_____________________

Yes, seven, which in turn also rests on celestial phenomenon such as waxing/waning of the moon (14 is actually a stronger number from that perspective)

I understand perfectly why seven. But my point is that offering a fabricated series of sevens seems to be such a high cost (nullification of your thesis at the moment the fraud is discovered) for a gain that can be had by other more clever means.

But I think your answer is sufficient in general terms - Banal. Agreed. But I'm disappointed they can't give us more of a challenge.

I think the end of the world is 14 sets of 14 generations. Not three.

Mulibok - my newsletter is three billion dollars.

Doctor X · 10-21-2003, 04:58 PM

Methinks Mt wrote for an audience that would not have the texts--nor interest--to contradict him.

--J.D.

Mullibok · 10-21-2003, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rlogan
Mulibok - my newsletter is three billion dollars.

Will you take a post-dated out-of-state check?

rlogan · 10-21-2003, 06:28 PM

Yes. From David Rockafeller.

Spenser · 10-22-2003, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rlogan
Happy to do so my friend. Anyone can work it out for themselves once given a start. First, take any circle of your choice. Calculate this ratio:

(circumference/diameter)

Right after the last decimal place, God put all of the proof there for us to see.

Q.E.D.

Sorry, didn't realize the sarcasm. Text has a way of hiding such things...

Doctor X · 10-22-2003, 04:32 PM

Not to hijack, but make sure ye do not missed the thread moved to the Evolution and Creation.

I bet you did not know that Mt. Everest was shorter than Mt. Ararat once. . . .

Anyways, back to the topic(s), the problem is assuming "literal" when the authors did not assume it.

--J.D.

Spenser · 10-22-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Not to hijack, but make sure ye do not missed the thread moved to the Evolution and Creation.

I bet you did not know that Mt. Everest was shorter than Mt. Ararat once. . . .

Anyways, back to the topic(s), the problem is assuming "literal" when the authors did not assume it.

--J.D.

Since you mentioned it I thought I'd provide the link.

NOGO · 10-22-2003, 05:15 PM

Quote:

rlogan
Exactly. That is why I am so disappointed. How could Matthew construct and rely on such a farce? Serious question, NOGO - for example, was he relying on illiteracy in the congregations, or ignorance from a lack of sufficient oral tradition? Talk about wicked!

No.. no.. no..
Whoever wrote GMt really believed what he wrote. The discrepancy (the lie if you will) is justified because it gets people to believe in the truth and be saved. The end justifies the means.
He was relying on whatever works.

Quote:

Yes, seven, which in turn also rests on celestial phenomenon such as waxing/waning of the moon (14 is actually a stronger number from that perspective)

I understand perfectly why seven. But my point is that offering a fabricated series of sevens seems to be such a high cost (nullification of your thesis at the moment the fraud is discovered) for a gain that can be had by other more clever means.

I disagree! The fact is that the fraud is not recognized even today among people who should know better. The religious mind can justify anything when it is convinced that the truth is at the end of the road. Just look at BGiC and his link and all the people who swallow these arguements whole.

Quote:

But I think your answer is sufficient in general terms - Banal. Agreed. But I'm disappointed they can't give us more of a challenge.

Can't give who more of a challenge?

Quote:

I think the end of the world is 14 sets of 14 generations. Not three.

Early Christians believed that they were living at the end times, ie the last generation. The NT is full of references to this fact.

NOGO · 10-22-2003, 05:29 PM

rlogan

Here is another example where the author of GMt stretch the truth in order to convince others.

When Jesus entered Jerusalem he sat on a donkey. This symbology in the old testament was used by the king or the anointed one of God (remember that Christ means anointed) to show humility etc. So Jesus goes out of his way to remind people that he is the anointed one of God in the tradition of the old testament when he enters Jerusalem upon a donkey.

In Matthew the author attempt to relate this event to a verse in the old testament. A prophecy of sorts.
Note first that he mis-quotes the verse.

MATTHEW 21:1-7

When they had come near Jerusalem and had reached Bethpage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, "Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, just say this, `The Lord needs them.' And he will send them immediately." This took place to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet, saying, "Tell the daughter of Zion, Look, your king is coming to you, humble, mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them; they brought the donkey and the colt, and put their cloaks on them, and he sat on them

Zech 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt, the foal of an ass

## Note the bold characters. "Them" implies that there are more than one. "and on a colt" as if someone can mount two animals at the same time. Note the actual verse in the old testament says "even unpon a colt". a colt is a young ass.

The expression "even upon a colt" means what?
There are many istances of this hebrew expression in the old testament here are a few.

Ezek 4:1-2
Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and portray upon it a city, even Jerusalem, and lay siege against it

1 Sam 28:17
Yahweh hath rent the kingdom out of thy hand, and given it to thy neighbor, even to David

Deut 4:13
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even the ten commandments

2 Samuel 7:6
"For I have not dwelt in a house since the day I brought up the sons of Israel from Egypt, even to this day; but I have been moving about in a tent, even in a tabernacle.

1 Kings 6:16
He built twenty cubits on the rear part of the house with boards of cedar from the floor to the ceiling; he built them for it on the inside as an inner sanctuary, even as the most holy place.

1 Kings 12:27
"If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.''

From these examples you can see what ", even ..." means
a city, even Jerusalem - the city is Jerusalem
thy neighbour, even to David - thy neighbour is David
covenant, even the ten commandments - the covenant is the ten commandments
in a tent, even in a tabernacle. - The tent is the tabernacle.
sanctuary, even as the most holy place. - The sanctuary is the most holy place.
Lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah. - The lord in question is Rehoboam king of Judah.

There are many more of these ", even ..." in the old testament all you have to do is search for ", even" and you will find a dozen more examples easily.

CONCLUSION
The author of Matthew mis-read and mis-interpreted the old testament verse which shows that he is not familiar with Hebrew.
It is therefore not Matthew.
He has Jesus entering Jerusalem on two animals rather than one.
The other gospels only have one as the verse in the old testament has only one.
This shows how well meaning authors strive to prove that Jesus is the anointed one of God and therefore King of Israel by quoting the old testament and when they can't match the facts to the writing ... they change the facts.
The facts that were changed here is the number of donkeys present. A small thing, perhaps, but the distortion of truth it seems is not an obstacle when the goal is to convince an audiance.

Doctor X · 10-22-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

The author of Matthew mis-read and mis-interpreted the old testament verse which shows that he is not familiar with Hebrew.
It is therefore not Matthew.

I do not think anyone believe Mt was written by a "real Matthew"--disciple of Junior if any such existed. However, Mt does tend to be traditionally--even today--described as the writer for the more "Jewish" followers.

I have not been convinced by this. He makes too many mistakes--such as you noted. Perhaps the author--whom we just call "Matthew" for the sake of argument--tried to research Jewishness and just did not do a perfect job of it.

--J.D.

10-21-2003, 06:28 PM	#114
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	sure... Yes. From David Rockafeller.

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10-21-2003, 04:49 PM	#111
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	NOGO: using word for my editor here: ________________________ "My claim is that the author of Matthew thought that you should be awed at the coincidence if numbers. However anyone reading the OT will realize that the coincidence is fabricated." _________________________ Exactly. That is why I am so disappointed. How could Matthew construct and rely on such a farce? Serious question, NOGO - for example, was he relying on illiteracy in the congregations, or ignorance from a lack of sufficient oral tradition? Talk about wicked! _____________________ "In the context of this discussion I would call it the number of days which God took to create the world. Get it? This God does things in multiples of seven - the magic number seven." _____________________ Yes, seven, which in turn also rests on celestial phenomenon such as waxing/waning of the moon (14 is actually a stronger number from that perspective) I understand perfectly why seven. But my point is that offering a fabricated series of sevens seems to be such a high cost (nullification of your thesis at the moment the fraud is discovered) for a gain that can be had by other more clever means. But I think your answer is sufficient in general terms - Banal. Agreed. But I'm disappointed they can't give us more of a challenge. I think the end of the world is 14 sets of 14 generations. Not three. Mulibok - my newsletter is three billion dollars.

10-21-2003, 04:58 PM	#112
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Methinks Mt wrote for an audience that would not have the texts--nor interest--to contradict him. --J.D.

10-22-2003, 04:32 PM	#116
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Not to hijack, but make sure ye do not missed the thread moved to the Evolution and Creation. I bet you did not know that Mt. Everest was shorter than Mt. Ararat once. . . . Anyways, back to the topic(s), the problem is assuming "literal" when the authors did not assume it. --J.D.

10-22-2003, 05:29 PM	#119
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	rlogan Here is another example where the author of GMt stretch the truth in order to convince others. When Jesus entered Jerusalem he sat on a donkey. This symbology in the old testament was used by the king or the anointed one of God (remember that Christ means anointed) to show humility etc. So Jesus goes out of his way to remind people that he is the anointed one of God in the tradition of the old testament when he enters Jerusalem upon a donkey. In Matthew the author attempt to relate this event to a verse in the old testament. A prophecy of sorts. Note first that he mis-quotes the verse. MATTHEW 21:1-7 When they had come near Jerusalem and had reached Bethpage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, "Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, just say this, `The Lord needs them.' And he will send them immediately." This took place to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet, saying, "Tell the daughter of Zion, Look, your king is coming to you, humble, mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey." The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them; they brought the donkey and the colt, and put their cloaks on them, and he sat on them Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt, the foal of an ass ## Note the bold characters. "Them" implies that there are more than one. "and on a colt" as if someone can mount two animals at the same time. Note the actual verse in the old testament says "even unpon a colt". a colt is a young ass. The expression "even upon a colt" means what? There are many istances of this hebrew expression in the old testament here are a few. Ezek 4:1-2 Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and portray upon it a city, even Jerusalem, and lay siege against it 1 Sam 28:17 Yahweh hath rent the kingdom out of thy hand, and given it to thy neighbor, even to David Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even the ten commandments 2 Samuel 7:6 "For I have not dwelt in a house since the day I brought up the sons of Israel from Egypt, even to this day; but I have been moving about in a tent, even in a tabernacle. 1 Kings 6:16 He built twenty cubits on the rear part of the house with boards of cedar from the floor to the ceiling; he built them for it on the inside as an inner sanctuary, even as the most holy place. 1 Kings 12:27 "If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.'' From these examples you can see what ", even ..." means a city, even Jerusalem - the city is Jerusalem thy neighbour, even to David - thy neighbour is David covenant, even the ten commandments - the covenant is the ten commandments in a tent, even in a tabernacle. - The tent is the tabernacle. sanctuary, even as the most holy place. - The sanctuary is the most holy place. Lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah. - The lord in question is Rehoboam king of Judah. There are many more of these ", even ..." in the old testament all you have to do is search for ", even" and you will find a dozen more examples easily. CONCLUSION The author of Matthew mis-read and mis-interpreted the old testament verse which shows that he is not familiar with Hebrew. It is therefore not Matthew. He has Jesus entering Jerusalem on two animals rather than one. The other gospels only have one as the verse in the old testament has only one. This shows how well meaning authors strive to prove that Jesus is the anointed one of God and therefore King of Israel by quoting the old testament and when they can't match the facts to the writing ... they change the facts. The facts that were changed here is the number of donkeys present. A small thing, perhaps, but the distortion of truth it seems is not an obstacle when the goal is to convince an audiance.

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