Freethought & Rationalism Archive

That Old Serpent · 08-15-2005, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

If humans were able to achieve obtaining a completely comfortable life at this time that indicated to them that it would be eternally comfortable, only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion. Although Christians vigorously defend the claim that Jesus rose from the dead, the claim is definitely incidental to their desire of obtaining a comfortable eternal life. Eternal comfort is the desired goal, not so much how it is obtained. Any of a number of means of obtaining it would be deemed equally acceptable." Do you dispute this?

While this question was addressed to someone else, I do dispute that eternal comfort is necessarily the supreme goal of all Christians. You appear to miss, or at least downplay the significance of, the other rewards for adherence to a simplistic religion. If I were to pick one that is the most important to the majority of believers, I would choose certainty: of moral absolutes, that somebody up there gives a holy crap about them, and, of course, of continued (yes, comfortable) existence after death.

seebs · 08-15-2005, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is not an unsupported assertion. In my opening post I said "If humans were able to achieve obtaining a completely comfortable life at this time that indicated to them that it would be eternally comfortable, only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion. Although Christians vigorously defend the claim that Jesus rose from the dead, the claim is definitely incidental to their desire of obtaining a comfortable eternal life. Eternal comfort is the desired goal, not so much how it is obtained. Any of a number of means of obtaining it would be deemed equally acceptable." Do you dispute this?

I would certainly dispute it; it's pure assertion.

Quote:

Revelation 21:4 says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Is the verse not about comfort?

Er, sure, it's about comfort. Not too far away, we have giant monsters. Does this indicate we should see a massive decline in Christianity directly correlated with the availability of Godzilla movies, since people are really only in it for the giant monsters, regardless of the source?

Quote:

As much as any Christian, but unlike Christians I do not claim that people who do not agree with me regarding what or who provides the comfort will go to hell.

It's okay, many Christians don't claim that either.

Mr Average · 08-15-2005, 12:38 PM

First, you said this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Historically, the vast majority of humans have always had a penchant for dreaming up all sorts of religions in order to satisfy their desire for a comfortable eternal life.

I pointed out this was unsupported. If it is supported, then please show me supporting evidence which confirms that historically humans have dreamed up religions to satisy their desire for comfort.

You then said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is not an unsupported assertion.

Where is the supporting evidence then? Without it, it is mere opinion. Again, you may be right, but that is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Eternal comfort is the desired goal

That is definitely one of the goals I would guess. But the main one, or the only one, I would think not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Any of a number of means of obtaining it would be deemed equally acceptable." Do you dispute this?

Hmm....it's not that I dispute it as such, it's just that I dont know how to falsify it and therefore to me it's irrelevant in the context of this discussion. It's simply a claim with no evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Revelation 21:4 says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Is the verse not about comfort?

It appears to be about the ending of suffering. From this though, you conclude what exactly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

As much as any Christian, but unlike Christians I do not claim that people who do not agree with me regarding what or who provides the comfort will go to hell.

OK, but I still cant fathom out what your point is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

The non-religious would feel the same way, but they do not claim that anyone who disagrees with them will go to hell.

Again, excuse my ignorance here, but I simply cannot see the point you are making.

In Peace, Mr Average

funinspace · 08-15-2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Historically, the vast majority of humans have always had a penchant for dreaming up all sorts of religions in order to satisfy their desire for a comfortable eternal life. The common denominator is comfort. This desire has caused many people to defend religions that are much more unbelievable than Christianity is, clearly testifying to the human desire of obtaining eternal comfort.

No disrespect intended, but Christians are just like trained seals looking for a reward of fish from their trainers. Seals in the wild with abundant food supplies would never be interested in performing tricks for humans. If humans were able to achieve obtaining a completely comfortable life at this time that indicated to them that it would be eternally comfortable, only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion. Although Christians vigorously defend the claim that Jesus rose from the dead, the claim is definitely incidental to their desire of obtaining a comfortable eternal life. Eternal comfort is the desired goal, not so much how it is obtained. Any of a number of means of obtaining it would be deemed equally acceptable.

Truly, as far as Christians and other religious minded people are concerned, all roads lead to comfort, and if an extra-terrestrial being one day provides eternal comfort for some people, to them his identity would be of no importance whatsoever.

I would think most wish this comfort for all, even if they think many will not get there. They can safely consider those that cannot get there outside of their control/influence. And some think most will get to this comfort inn within "heaven". They also think that this provides an inner peace here. I could even perceive that a peaceful eternal existence would be tempting beyond just becoming fertilizer. And some even argue that there could more to this future, than what is laid out.

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Even if I believed that Jesus rose from the dead, I would not become a Christian unless God first answered a lot of questions to my satisfaction. For instance, I would like for him to explain some of his questionable actions and allowances in the Old Testament, some of his questionable allowances in the world today, such as allowing tsunamis, hunger and plagues, why he gives humans such a brief amount of time to accept him, why he doesn’t provide more proof of his existence, and why Jesus hasn’t returned to earth.

Why of course, because we are fallen, wicked, and dissevered any horror that could befall us due to our sinful nature. And besides we humans got ourselves kicked out of the perfect Eden

Quote:

Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead, the ability to predict the future, and goodness.

True, but I don't think the typical Christian would argue otherwise.

Quote:

If an evil God created the universe, it would be impossible for anyone to know what his motives are. He could easily make prophecies that come true, heal the sick, cause anyone to rise from the dead and be responsible for pleasing spiritual experiences. Even the delivery of a comfortable heaven would not be proof of God’s love since he could easily soon take it away and send everyone to hell.

True, but the Christian could say, but why would this God go to all the effort. Either way, they could equally argue that we would be blind to such a reality, and then fall back on that faith thing.

Quote:

Where is God today? The Bible claims that there is tangible evidence of God’s power thousands of years ago, but what tangible evidence is there of his power and involvement in the lives of humans today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are not distributed equitably, and that they are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention, calling into question claims that miracles occurred thousands of years ago.

Don'tcha know prayers are answered every day

Besides, if humans can believe in UFO's a thousand fold, why answered prayer be such a difficult thing to buy, with chaotic patterns of this world. Like many people can't even comprehend statistics... And modern Christians find ways to read the Bible such that they think the disasters are part of a "natural" earth/normal; and that they are to exalt God while in their travails, and to learn his peace.

Quote:

When confronted with difficulties like the ones that I mentioned, Christians frequently refer to Isaiah 55:8. The versse says “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.�? The problem for Christians here is that in order for the verse to make any sense, Isaiah would had to have known what God thoughts and ways are in order to know that they are different from our own, which of course he didn’t. If I had been alive back then, I would have asked Isaiah “How do you know that?�? His response might have been “God told me so.�?

Yep, another oddity.

Quote:

I am curious why no Christian has made a post in this thread.

Maybe because the thread is pretty broad and sweeping in it's scope.

MonCapitan2002 · 08-15-2005, 01:56 PM

If the desire for an eternal life full of comfort is so common where does that place those of us who would greatly prefer oblivion?

seebs · 08-15-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonCapitan2002

If the desire for an eternal life full of comfort is so common where does that place those of us who would greatly prefer oblivion?

Presumably you will accept any belief system, however baroque, as long as it promises that you'll end up dead.

Johnny Skeptic · 08-15-2005, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonCapitan2002

If the desire for an eternal life full of comfort is so common where does that place those of us who would greatly prefer oblivion?

Assuming that you could remain in good health, how long would you like to live? If you prefer oblivion, why don't you kill yourself?

I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 35 years, so I believe that I am qualified to state what Christians, both liberal and fundamentalist, believe. In addition, one need not be a Christian in order to read what the Bible clearly says. ALL liberal Christians and ALL fundamentalist Christians look forward to a comfortable eternal life. Part of the proof can be found in Revelation 21:2-4. The verses read "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." The verses clearly promise physical and emotional comfort.

The promise of immortality would by no means be as attractive to Christians, or to anyone else for that matter, if comfort was not promised as well. An eternal life full of sickness, hunger, wars and natural disasters would not be popular among most people.

As I said in my opening post, if humans were able to achieve complete comfort in this life on their own, and if they believed that they could achieve immortality on their own as well, only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion.

seebs · 08-16-2005, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 35 years, so I believe that I am qualified to state what Christians, both liberal and fundamentalist, believe.

This seems deeply implausible. Most of the fundamentalists I've known have only vague impressions of what other Christians believe, and I can only think of a handful of Christians of any sort whatsoever that show detailed knowledge of other branches of the faith. In many cases, the beliefs of other Christians are often gravely misunderstood, because they are interpreted in terms of one's own premises.

Quote:

In addition, one need not be a Christian in order to read what the Bible clearly says. ALL liberal Christians and ALL fundamentalist Christians look forward to a comfortable eternal life.

I do not believe this to be so. I have known Christians who believe that all of the stuff about "life eternal" is metaphorical and refers to a change in the perception of this life, in which we come to think that what time we get is enough.

Quote:

Part of the proof can be found in Revelation 21:2-4. The verses read "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." The verses clearly promise physical and emotional comfort.

But many Christians do not believe that Revelation is literal, and many others do not believe that it denotes future events.

Quote:

The promise of immortality would by no means be as attractive to Christians, or to anyone else for that matter, if comfort was not promised as well. An eternal life full of sickness, hunger, wars and natural disasters would not be popular among most people.

This may be the case.

However, this does not explain why people haven't all converted to a much simpler religion which simply asserts that everyone gets such a life.

Quote:

As I said in my opening post, if humans were able to achieve complete comfort in this life on their own, and if they believed that they could achieve immortality on their own as well, only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion.

I am not convinced yet. You have asserted this several times, but I'm not convinced that it's true. Honestly, I think a lot of people who currently don't have the time for such speculations would become interested.

firebird · 08-16-2005, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Some time ago I did quite well with a topic similar to this one at the Theology Web. James Holding et al embarrassed themselves and I retired all of them.

Consider the following Scriptures:

REV 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

REV 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

REV 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Historically, the vast majority of humans have always had a penchant for dreaming up all sorts of religions in order to satisfy their desire for a comfortable eternal life. The common denominator is comfort. This desire has caused many people to defend religions that are much more unbelievable than Christianity is, clearly testifying to the human desire of obtaining eternal comfort.

No disrespect intended, but Christians are just like trained seals looking for a reward of fish from their trainers. Seals in the wild with abundant food supplies would never be interested in performing tricks for humans. If humans were able to achieve obtaining a completely comfortable life at this time that indicated to them that it would be eternally comfortable, only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion. Although Christians vigorously defend the claim that Jesus rose from the dead, the claim is definitely incidental to their desire of obtaining a comfortable eternal life. Eternal comfort is the desired goal, not so much how it is obtained. Any of a number of means of obtaining it would be deemed equally acceptable.

Truly, as far as Christians and other religious minded people are concerned, all roads lead to comfort, and if an extra-terrestrial being one day provides eternal comfort for some people, to them his identity would be of no importance whatsoever.

Even if I believed that Jesus rose from the dead, I would not become a Christian unless God first answered a lot of questions to my satisfaction. For instance, I would like for him to explain some of his questionable actions and allowances in the Old Testament, some of his questionable allowances in the world today, such as allowing tsunamis, hunger and plagues, why he gives humans such a brief amount of time to accept him, why he doesn’t provide more proof of his existence, and why Jesus hasn’t returned to earth.

Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead, the ability to predict the future, and goodness.

If an evil God created the universe, it would be impossible for anyone to know what his motives are. He could easily make prophecies that come true, heal the sick, cause anyone to rise from the dead and be responsible for pleasing spiritual experiences. Even the delivery of a comfortable heaven would not be proof of God’s love since he could easily soon take it away and send everyone to hell.

Where is God today? The Bible claims that there is tangible evidence of God’s power thousands of years ago, but what tangible evidence is there of his power and involvement in the lives of humans today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are not distributed equitably, and that they are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention, calling into question claims that miracles occurred thousands of years ago.

Matthew 14:14 says “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.�? We need compassion in tangible ways today just as much as people did back then. It seems to me that there are only two possibilities here, either that God is no longer compassionate in tangible ways, or that he never was compassionate in tangible ways.

When confronted with difficulties like the ones that I mentioned, Christians frequently refer to Isaiah 55:8. The versse says “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.�? The problem for Christians here is that in order for the verse to make any sense, Isaiah would had to have known what God thoughts and ways are in order to know that they are different from our own, which of course he didn’t. If I had been alive back then, I would have asked Isaiah “How do you know that?�? His response might have been “God told me so.�?

Do you know what any of this bible stuff means?

Do you know what is meant by a New Jerusalem?

FB

Johnny Skeptic · 08-16-2005, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 35 years, so I believe that I am qualified to state what Christians, both liberal and fundamentalist, believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seebs

This seems deeply implausible. Most of the fundamentalists I've known have only vague impressions of what other Christians believe, and I can only think of a handful of Christians of any sort whatsoever that show detailed knowledge of other branches of the faith. In many cases, the beliefs of other Christians are often gravely misunderstood, because they are interpreted in terms of one's own premises.

I oppose fundamentalist Christians, not liberal Christians. I and the majority of other skeptics prefer to debate fundamentalist Christians because they often attempt to legislate their religious views. My opening post was intended only to address fundamentalist Christian views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

In addition, one need not be a Christian in order to read what the Bible clearly says. ALL liberal Christians and ALL fundamentalist Christians look forward to a comfortable eternal life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seebs

I do not believe this to be so. I have known Christians who believe that all of the stuff about "life eternal" is metaphorical and refers to a change in the perception of this life, in which we come to think that what time we get is enough.

Please give me some examples of Christian denominations who claim that heaven is metaphorical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Part of the proof can be found in Revelation 21:2-4. The verses read "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." The verses clearly promise physical and emotional comfort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seebs

But many Christians do not believe that Revelation is literal, and many others do not believe that it denotes future events.

You are speaking of liberal Christians. I oppose fundamentalist Christians, not liberal Christians, and virtually all fundamentalist Christians look forward to obtaining a comfortable eternal life.

[quote=JohnnySkeptic] The promise of immortality would by no means be as attractive to Christians, or to anyone else for that matter, if comfort was not promised as well. An eternal life full of sickness, hunger, wars and natural disasters would not be popular among most people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seebs

This may be the case.

May be? Come on now, you know better than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seebs

However, this does not explain why people haven't all converted to a much simpler religion which simply asserts that everyone gets such a life.

Which religion do you have in mind? Since you are interested in why a lot of people became Christians, I suggest that you buy (if you haven’t already done so) Rodney Stark’s book titled ‘The Rise of Christianity,’ for which Stark received a Pulitzer Prize nomination.

My purpose in starting this thread was to address fundamentalist Christian views regarding obtaining a comfortable eternal life, and I have adequately done so.

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08-15-2005, 01:56 PM	#15
MonCapitan2002 Contributor Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: --- Posts: 10,496	If the desire for an eternal life full of comfort is so common where does that place those of us who would greatly prefer oblivion?

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