Freethought & Rationalism Archive

kcdad · 04-19-2009, 07:41 PM

Rereading this account of the third appearance of Jesus after the crucifixion is troublesome.
1) It is at least a week and and a several days after the crucifixion.
2) Again, the disciples don't recognize Jesus by sight or by the sound of his voice.
3) The writer identifies 5 disciples (Peter, Thomas, James and John and Nathaniel...) and then mentions "2 other disciples" of Jesus. Where are the others and why don't these other two deserve mention by name?
4) Jesus builds a fire out of charcoal... why so specific here?
5) The boys catch 153 fish... again, why so specific? (17 x 9? 51 x 3?12 dozen plus 9?)
6) What is the significance of fishing on the "right" side of the boat? Were the boys fishing on the "left side or the wrong side?
7) Why call it the Sea of Tiberius and not Sea of Galilee or Kinneret? Was the author Roman?
8) In John 20... In the previous appearances Jesus appears to Thomas and the others on the evening of the first day of the week... that would be Saturday evening. How is that possible? What happened to three days in the tomb?

kcdad · 04-21-2009, 06:30 AM

Doesn't anyone want to comment on this?

storytime · 04-21-2009, 07:45 AM

That is a very good question. Why didn't Peter recognize his lord?

Peter explains to the man walking with them that it had been three days since Jesus was crucified, and he had expected Jesus to return and restore the kingdom[of Judah] to Israel(?), but alas, no Jesus appeared as yet to them. The man walking with them said, "how slow are you to believe all that the prophets have told you". Then the man suddenly disappears. Then Peter is hit by the revelation that the stranger was Jesus. WOW! And Peter was left with an open mouth... "Did we not hear the words", etc.

If I tell you the story of Jesus the Christ, can you see him in my story? Can you recognize his words? But if I suddenly disappear into thin air, what would you make of that?

hefdaddy42 · 04-21-2009, 08:52 AM

Most of them appear to be unanswerable, but I'm not sure what you mean by "troublesome."

kcdad · 04-21-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hefdaddy42

Most of them appear to be unanswerable, but I'm not sure what you mean by "troublesome."

Pretending to be wise, it appears foolish.

Pretending to be written by an eyewitness, it reads as VERY made up.

The specifics seem irrelevant and the important seems left in generalities.
153 fish, throw the net off the right side of the boat, fire of coal or charcoal etc VS WHO was actually there "two other disciples", they didn't recognize Jesus, what did Jesus say to them during this meeting?

Loomis · 04-21-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Doesn't anyone want to comment on this?

John 21 doesn’t belong with the rest of John. It was written by a different author. It was probably written by the author of Mark. John 21 is probably the original ending of Mark.

There is an excellent article on this subject here:

The Evolution of Mark

If you are genuinely interested in this subject then go read it.

Toto · 04-21-2009, 02:22 PM

Catch_of_153_fish

Quote:

The precision of the number of fish has long been considered peculiar, and many scholars, throughout history, have argued that 153 has some deeper significance. Jerome, for example, claimed that the Greeks had identified that there were exactly 153 species of fish in the sea (modern marine biology puts the figure as something over 29,000, though the disciples were fishing in the Sea of Tiberias, which actually is a lake). St. Louis-Marie de Montfort, in his fifth method of saying the Rosary, considers that the number 153 was foreshadowing of the number of Hail Marys in the Rosary . . . Mathematically, 153 is a triangular number, more precisely it is the sum of the integer numbers from 1 to 17 inclusive; more significantly, 153 also has the rare property that it is the sum of the cubes of its own digits (i.e. 153 = 1x1x1 + 5x5x5 + 3x3x3). In the time of Pythagoras, 153 was most significant for being the denominator in the closest fraction known, at the time, to the true value of the square root of 3, the fraction in question being 265/153 (the difference between this and the square root of 3 is merely 0.000025......). The ratio of 153:265 was consequently known throughout the Hellenic world as the measure of the fish

But this just opens the door to speculation - was this an in joke? a gnostic reference? a foreshadowing of the Da Vinci Code?

Toto · 04-21-2009, 02:34 PM

More on 153: A fish story

Quote:

This story was not originally about Jesus. It was a story about Pythagoras. Here is one the Pythagoras versions:

"At that time also, when he was journeying from Sybaris to Crotona, he met near the shore with some fishermen, who were then drawing their nets heavily laden with fishes from the deep, and told them he knew the exact number of the fish they had caught. But the fishermen promising that they would perform whatever he should order them to do, if the event corresponded with his prediction, he ordered them, after they had numbered the fish, to return them alive to the sea; and what is yet more wonderful, not one of the fish died while he stood on the shore, though they had been detained from the water a considerable time. Having therfore paid the fishermen the price of their fish, he departed for Crotona. But they everywhere divulged the fact, and having learnt his name from some children, they told it to all men" (Iamblichus Life of Pythagoras 8)

153 is not mentioned in this story, but is associated with Pythagoras in another context. Usually, when these stories are added to the NT narrative, the point is to show that Jesus one-ups the pagan hero. Pythagoras merely guesses the number of fish, and then lets them go. Jesus actually causes the catch, and feeds his followers.

kcdad · 04-22-2009, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Doesn't anyone want to comment on this?

John 21 doesn’t belong with the rest of John. It was written by a different author. It was probably written by the author of Mark. John 21 is probably the original ending of Mark.

There is an excellent article on this subject here:

The Evolution of Mark

If you are genuinely interested in this subject then go read it.

Thanks. VERRRRRRRY interesting. I like the comparison with Luke and the use of Greek in this section compared to the rest of John....

kcdad · 04-22-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

More on 153: A fish story

Quote:

This story was not originally about Jesus. It was a story about Pythagoras. Here is one the Pythagoras versions:

"At that time also, when he was journeying from Sybaris to Crotona, he met near the shore with some fishermen, who were then drawing their nets heavily laden with fishes from the deep, and told them he knew the exact number of the fish they had caught. But the fishermen promising that they would perform whatever he should order them to do, if the event corresponded with his prediction, he ordered them, after they had numbered the fish, to return them alive to the sea; and what is yet more wonderful, not one of the fish died while he stood on the shore, though they had been detained from the water a considerable time. Having therfore paid the fishermen the price of their fish, he departed for Crotona. But they everywhere divulged the fact, and having learnt his name from some children, they told it to all men" (Iamblichus Life of Pythagoras 8)

153 is not mentioned in this story, but is associated with Pythagoras in another context. Usually, when these stories are added to the NT narrative, the point is to show that Jesus one-ups the pagan hero. Pythagoras merely guesses the number of fish, and then lets them go. Jesus actually causes the catch, and feeds his followers.

Bravo! "what is yet more wonderful, not one of the fish died while he stood on the shore" HERE may be more motivation for the adopting of the story as a Jesus story. Jesus is put into the Octavian myths the Mithra myths... why not Pythagoras?

04-19-2009, 07:41 PM	#1
kcdad Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: illinois Posts: 688	John 21 a strange story Rereading this account of the third appearance of Jesus after the crucifixion is troublesome. 1) It is at least a week and and a several days after the crucifixion. 2) Again, the disciples don't recognize Jesus by sight or by the sound of his voice. 3) The writer identifies 5 disciples (Peter, Thomas, James and John and Nathaniel...) and then mentions "2 other disciples" of Jesus. Where are the others and why don't these other two deserve mention by name? 4) Jesus builds a fire out of charcoal... why so specific here? 5) The boys catch 153 fish... again, why so specific? (17 x 9? 51 x 3?12 dozen plus 9?) 6) What is the significance of fishing on the "right" side of the boat? Were the boys fishing on the "left side or the wrong side? 7) Why call it the Sea of Tiberius and not Sea of Galilee or Kinneret? Was the author Roman? 8) In John 20... In the previous appearances Jesus appears to Thomas and the others on the evening of the first day of the week... that would be Saturday evening. How is that possible? What happened to three days in the tomb?

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04-21-2009, 06:30 AM	#2
kcdad Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: illinois Posts: 688	Doesn't anyone want to comment on this?

04-21-2009, 07:45 AM	#3
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	That is a very good question. Why didn't Peter recognize his lord? Peter explains to the man walking with them that it had been three days since Jesus was crucified, and he had expected Jesus to return and restore the kingdom[of Judah] to Israel(?), but alas, no Jesus appeared as yet to them. The man walking with them said, "how slow are you to believe all that the prophets have told you". Then the man suddenly disappears. Then Peter is hit by the revelation that the stranger was Jesus. WOW! And Peter was left with an open mouth... "Did we not hear the words", etc. If I tell you the story of Jesus the Christ, can you see him in my story? Can you recognize his words? But if I suddenly disappear into thin air, what would you make of that?

04-21-2009, 08:52 AM	#4
hefdaddy42 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Mount Airy, NC Posts: 17	Most of them appear to be unanswerable, but I'm not sure what you mean by "troublesome."

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