FireBrandon

A common argument employed by fundamentalists is the willingness of the disciples and successive generations to die for preaching the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I have questions about this.

1. Did they actually die the way the church fathers say they did?

2. What ancient documents/church fathers actually refer to the martydoms? (Most modern apologists refer to John Foxe's Book of Martyrs.)

3. Did they die for preaching Christ's miracles/resurrection or rather for establishing an self-righteous sect that despised the Roman world?

4. Do any other religions have comparable stories of early disciples' willingness to die for alleged truth?

5. Are any of the martyrdom stories embellished?

6. Were the disciples sincere but misled by their superstition?

7. Does fanaticism and martyrdom = truthfulness?

What is the best way to rebut these claims? Or are some of the arguments valid?

Toto

This question comes up frequently.

There is a good summary here by Stephen Carr.

In particular:

There are no good historical sources.

Lurid tales of martyrdom were staples of some of the apocryphal Acts and other writings that are considered historically dubious.

If they were martyrs, they died for refusing to sacrifice to the Roman Emperors, and/or for being a member of a potentially subversive secret society.

Wikipedia on non-Christian martyrs lists Jewish, Islamic, Sikh, and Bahai martyrs. The Bahai martyrs seem closest to the formation of the religion.Christians will find some way to distinguish all these.

Undoubtedly.

That is unknown.

I think you know the answer to that. The 9-11 hijackers died for their beliefs. So did the Heaven's Gate cult.

Biff the unclean

Although the bible repeatedly calls the disciples “The 12” if you count all of them mentioned in the various books the total is 14.
They are characters in a story. They died their melodramatic martyrs deaths for exactly the same reason Sirius Black died his.

renassault

1 Clement testifies to Paul's martyrdom under Nero (I think Peter's as well), but he also mentions a trip to Spain, which while not impossible, I think is unlikely, but I think the tradition is unanimous regarding at least Paul and Peter.

A sect that despised the world and had teachings like Romans 13.1-4 ??? Not to mention that the whole argument that Christianity was propitiated due to being seen as a counter-weight to the Roman empire is complete hogwash seeing the correspondence between Paul and the churches and the fact that the morality which went against all that was Greek (and Roman) would not have appealed to anybody who simply wanted to shake off Roman rule from whatever country they were from.

Well it always depends on the person. Remember Socrates didn't even die for a religion but a principle. But an overview would most likely say No.

Late writings such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla, apparently not having been written by eyewitnesses.

Rushing to martyrdom is contrary to the early Christians' thought.

renassault

They had other names, not just one (Peter-Cephas-Simon, Thomas-Didymus).

andrewcriddle

Acts chapter 12 gives an account of the martyrdom of the Apostle James.

Andrew Criddle

FireBrandon

Could you elaborate on this a little more? I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you are saying.

So what texts would you establish as being firsthand eyewitness accounts of the martyrdoms of the early Church? Were the second century Church fathers watching Peter be crucified?

Provide evidence please. What text are you drawing from that the early Christians did not consider martyrdom to be glorious. Here are some texts from the Bible that oppose your statement.

1) Rev. 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. NKJV

2) Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (NKJ)

Doubtlessly the early Christians had adequate motivation to hasten to martyrdom when persecuted. The apostles promised glorious rewards in heaven and martyrdom hastens one there and the beheaded one receives a crown of glory and authority to rule with Jesus. The benefits of hastening to heaven by death are....
1. no more hunger or thirst
2. no more pain
3. no more sorrow or tears (side note: how could they not cry while their friends are tormented and scream in hell? Anyone who thinks this will not be a problem has never heard someone in agony begging for mercy. IF God is so merciful why does he not hear the rich man begging for Lazarus to give him a drop of water? Does his mercy run out?....sorry for the digression)
4. mansions in heaven/New Jerusalem
5. awesome robes!
6. w/ JC

The Heaven's Gate group committed suicide because of their beliefs. Islam claims. The rewards promised for martyrs are wonderful and that may have led many to boldly oppose anything contrary to Christian religion (emperor worship, the Greco-Roman theater) Refusing to worship the emperor was like spitting on the President and hoping to escape jail time. It's just dishonorable. Did the emperors think themselves to be true gods? Maybe the insane ones. But to the rest, they probably considered sincere participation in worship a mere citizen's duty, like reciting the pledge of allegiance. To reject it and preach publicly against it would be seen as dissent and rebellion, esp. by a sect with secret "love feasts", initiation rites (baptism) etc... So the martyrdom was not for faith in Jesus per se, but for becoming (at least in appearance) another sect trying to throw off the Roman yoke. Correct me if I'm wrong, which could be the case

Needless to say, once Christianity gained control of the state, the persecuted became the persecutor, from Constantine all through the papacy.

squiz

Joseph Smith

Biff the unclean

I know that. There are still 14

Biff the unclean

Simon (Peter)
Simon Zeolotes
Andrew
James (son of Zebedee)
James (son of Alphaeus)
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Matthew
Lebbaeus (surname Thaddeus)
Simon the Canaanite
Judas Iscariot
Judas (brother of James)

Each gospel names 12, but not the same 12