rhutchin

Jesus seems to have been born around the September-October time frame according to some. His birth would have been in 6-7 BC given the Herod who was ruling at that time. I don't think anyone thinks that Christ was born on Dec 25 or in 1 AD and there is nothing in the Bible (of which I am aware) to support that claim.

rhutchin

Yes. Everyone should know what is coming. Even you.

Yep, God has allowed people to do some pretty horrendous things to each other (e.g., think of Hitler and his compatriots). People will be themselves if left alone. Even you.

rhutchin

Let's add some context to your carefully cropped verses:

Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.

He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver.

He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendour.”

But I said, “I have laboured to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing. Yet what is due to me is in the LORD’s hand, and my reward is with my God.”

And now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honoured in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength--

he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”

How is it that God's servant Israel is to gather Israel to himself? Is he to gather himself to himself? Obviously not.

The servant Israel is to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.

Who fits that description if not Christ?

So, no we don't have to guess at which is the better interpretation. Isaiah 49 explicitly tells us the servant Isaiah is discussing is Israel and this Israel is Christ.

rhutchin

Well, actually, God just lets you be yourself. God does not have to make you do anything; He merely has to allow you to do as you desire without interference from Him.

Chili

Yes but the historical Jesus was not the Christ until he was crucified and moved to Rome after that while Jesus left to come and show us how to gather Christ to ourself time and time again.

Johnny Skeptic

Do you? I recently started a new thread at http://www.freeratio.org//showthread.php?t=259452 at the General Religious Discussions Forum. The title is "How is the Bible not the personal opinions of the authors?" I quoted what you said in my opening post. Have you visited the thread? Do you intend to make any posts in that thread? I assume that you don't because you are not confident enough to discuss your absurd question.

Do you believe that firsthand, eyewitness claims in the Gospels are important? If so, how many examples of firsthand eyewitness accounts are you aware of in the Gospels?

Do you believe that it is acceptable to include the use of history, science, and philosophy when trying to verify the claims that the Bible makes? If so, I have lots of issues to discuss with you regarding history, science, and philosophy.

You recently made a brief appearance in my thread at http://www.freeratio.org//showthread.php?t=259291 at the Evolution/Creation Forum. The title is "The global flood and the 2nd law of thermodynamics." You quickly got into trouble and took the next bus out of town. No rational person would claim that a global flood occurred. Are you a YEC (young earth creationist)? If so, no rational person would claim that the earth is young.

Regarding Isaiah 53, I invite you to participate in a thread at http://www.freeratio.org//showthread.php?t=259378 at the General Religious Discussions Forum. The title is "Isaiah 53 If not Jesus then who?"

That has been addressed in the thread that I mentioned at the General Religious Discussions Forum.

The Jews for Judaism web site at http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index....=48&Itemid=373 has 24 clickable articles that support the probability that Isaiah 53 does not refer to Jesus. Consider the following from that website:

That was one of the 24 clickable articles. I will be happy to discuss all of them with you at the General Religious Discussions Forum.

Johnny Skeptic

That is obviously false. God frequently prevents people from doing what they want to do by injuring and killing them with hurricanes and tsunamies, and by destroying their homes. God is by far the most dangerous adversary that humans have. He even empowered the Devil to help him terrorize mankind. Who do you think caused the first miscarriage? Who do you think created homosexuality in hundreds of species of animals and birds, including in possibly 100% of primate species?

Do you have any idea why many Christians ask God to protect them from himself? Why would God want to stop injuring and killing people with hurricanes, not to mention innocent animals?

I have exchanged hundreds of posts with you. I look forward to exchanging hundreds more posts with you. I already have at least one victory over you in a debate about homosexuality.

The Dagda

If that's true then Herod and Herod are two different people, considering he died 30 years later after Herod refused to meet out Judean justice on a mad man.

Chili

So was there more than one Pilate too? I will argue that Pilate represents local jurisprudence under Herod who was the Grand Inquisitor with the insight to handle Galileans in effort to actually prevent the 'great commission' ordered by the "final imposter" that the chief priest had warned Pilate about in Matthew 27:64.

Please note that Matthew did not have a clue about the meaning of Galilee and must be sanitized from Jewish perversion in Mark before Luke can show us how it's done in a sane world where Ascension will follow the crucifixion event.

spamandham

When you understand it as the metaphor it obviously is, it's simple to understand what this means. It's referring to a call back to tradition. You only get into trouble if you view 'Israel' as meaning only a state. It is a state, it is a religion, it is a people, and it is the leader of those people, depending on context.

Now from your perspective, none of this is metaphor. It's literal and it refers to Jesus (even though neither Jesus nor a messiah are mentioned anywhere in the passages under discussion). So, where are your literal Jesus' literal offspring?

Isaiah 53:10

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.