Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pharoah · 09-19-2005, 04:55 AM

Paul's statement that Jesus appeared to more than 500 brethren has always puzzled me. Let's look at some relevant passages:

Quote:

1 Corinthians 15 (New International Version)

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Quote:

Acts 1 (New International Version)

1In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Quote:

15In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

First of all, I would argue that Paul's use of the word "brethren" strongly implies that he was referring to believers, not just a random mix of people. That's the way it's used throughout the NT.

Now the critical question is: did this alleged appearance of Jesus to the 500 take place before or after the ascension? If it took place before then Paul's statement loses all credibility. If 500 or more believers saw Jesus before he ascended, why were there only 120 people in the original gathering?

Is it possible to nail down this appearance as a pre-ascension event?

Aspirin99 · 09-19-2005, 05:20 AM

A good case has been made by several good authors of late that the answer is "no."

For example...
Review: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ion/index.html

The basic idea is that - To Paul, there was no delay between death and the ascension. Paul makes no discernment between the appearance of Jesus to himself or any of the other he mentioned. To Paul, we die, and then the corruptable puts on incorruption. This was his model of the resurrection. In other words, we should understand that what happened to Jesus will happen to us.

All appearances of Christ after his death were the glorified Christ according to Paul. Paul knows nothing of an ascension, so to speak. There was no need for Jesus to ascend because He was not mortal after his resurrection.

Aspirin99 · 09-19-2005, 05:26 AM

One more thing, I don't think that the 120 mentioned in Acts is a good argument against 500. Just because there's a mention of 120 people being in one place does not negate the possibility of there being more in another place.

yalla · 09-19-2005, 05:58 AM

One is rumour the other is fiction.

pharoah · 09-19-2005, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspirin99

One more thing, I don't think that the 120 mentioned in Acts is a good argument against 500. Just because there's a mention of 120 people being in one place does not negate the possibility of there being more in another place.

Where else would they be? This was the starting point of Christianity. It's impossible to imagine that any believer that could've been there wouldn't have been there.

Aspirin99 · 09-19-2005, 07:08 AM

If I play the devil's advocate, I might point to the feeding of the 5000 to show that crowds who were interested in Jesus came from more places than Jerusalem. An augment could be made that Jesus appeared to people in more places that Jerusalem. Hell, the Mormons have Jesus appearing to people in the Americas. Paul's view of Christ's appearances contain no constraints on location or amount of time past from the resurrection.

I imagine that your view and my view are fairly similar in a lot of ways. I just think that if you use the 120 in the upper room in a debate ageist the 500, it's not going to be convincing. Your discussion partner might ask about the plausibility of the 120 evangelizing on a hillside soon after where interested people gather to hear what they have to say. Various scenarios could be invented. I just don't think it's a strong argument.

jakejonesiv · 09-21-2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

Paul's statement that Jesus appeared to more than 500 brethren has always puzzled me. Let's look at some relevant passages?

1 Corinthians 15:3-11 is a Post-Pauline Interpolation, so the appearance to the 500 brethren is just as spurious as the rest of the listed appearances.

Robert Price, _Apocryphal Apparitions: 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 as a Post-Pauline Interpolation_, http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html

Hermann Deterring , _TRADITION ODER INTERPOLATION? ANTIMARCIONITISCHE INTERPOLATIONEN IN 1 KOR 15, 1-11_ http://www.radikalkritik.de/1kor15.pdf

Jake Jones IV

Aspirin99 · 09-21-2005, 09:28 AM

Jake,

While I can see Robert Price's point, he doesn't seem to take the idea beyond an intelligent speculation, which seems to be about as far as one can go with this.

jakejonesiv · 09-21-2005, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspirin99

Jake,

While I can see Robert Price's point, he doesn't seem to take the idea beyond an intelligent speculation, which seems to be about as far as one can go with this.

Resurrection apperances are not alleged elsewhere in the Pauline corpus, so 1 Cor. 15:3-11 is the oddity.

If you can handle the German, take a look at Deterring's reconstruction of the text.

Now here is some real speculation. The 500 brethren are a later interpolalation (i.e. late 2nd century) into the first interpolation, based on the "Acts of Pilate" 500 soldiers who converted after witnessing the resurrection.

Quote:

"Pilate therefore, upon this, gave them five hundred soldiers, who also sat round the sepulchre so as to guard it, after having put seals upon the stone of the tomb ...

And upon this there came up one of the soldiers guarding the tomb, and he said in the synagogue: Learn that Jesus has risen. ... And from fear of him, all of us soldiers became as dead, ...

...teaching them, and saying, Go into all the world, and proclaim the good news; and whosoever will believe and be baptized shall be saved; but whosoever will not believe shall be condemned. And having thus spoken, he went up into heaven. And both we and many others of the five hundred besides were looking on."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s-roberts.html

Jake Jones

Aspirin99 · 09-21-2005, 10:25 AM

I can go along with the idea that its exclusivity makes it a probably candidate for an interpolation. I just don't understand the need to make it an absolute interpolation. This is the second time this week I've made this similar observation, so perhaps I'm hyper sensitive to it. Maybe I'm just a recovering fundamentalist.

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09-19-2005, 05:20 AM	#2
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	A good case has been made by several good authors of late that the answer is "no." For example... Review: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ion/index.html The basic idea is that - To Paul, there was no delay between death and the ascension. Paul makes no discernment between the appearance of Jesus to himself or any of the other he mentioned. To Paul, we die, and then the corruptable puts on incorruption. This was his model of the resurrection. In other words, we should understand that what happened to Jesus will happen to us. All appearances of Christ after his death were the glorified Christ according to Paul. Paul knows nothing of an ascension, so to speak. There was no need for Jesus to ascend because He was not mortal after his resurrection.

09-19-2005, 05:26 AM	#3
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	One more thing, I don't think that the 120 mentioned in Acts is a good argument against 500. Just because there's a mention of 120 people being in one place does not negate the possibility of there being more in another place.

09-19-2005, 05:58 AM	#4
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	One is rumour the other is fiction.

09-19-2005, 07:08 AM	#6
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	If I play the devil's advocate, I might point to the feeding of the 5000 to show that crowds who were interested in Jesus came from more places than Jerusalem. An augment could be made that Jesus appeared to people in more places that Jerusalem. Hell, the Mormons have Jesus appearing to people in the Americas. Paul's view of Christ's appearances contain no constraints on location or amount of time past from the resurrection. I imagine that your view and my view are fairly similar in a lot of ways. I just think that if you use the 120 in the upper room in a debate ageist the 500, it's not going to be convincing. Your discussion partner might ask about the plausibility of the 120 evangelizing on a hillside soon after where interested people gather to hear what they have to say. Various scenarios could be invented. I just don't think it's a strong argument.

09-21-2005, 09:28 AM	#8
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	Jake, While I can see Robert Price's point, he doesn't seem to take the idea beyond an intelligent speculation, which seems to be about as far as one can go with this.

09-21-2005, 10:25 AM	#10
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	I can go along with the idea that its exclusivity makes it a probably candidate for an interpolation. I just don't understand the need to make it an absolute interpolation. This is the second time this week I've made this similar observation, so perhaps I'm hyper sensitive to it. Maybe I'm just a recovering fundamentalist.

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