Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JEST2ASK · 02-13-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

In Luke 22:36, Jesus said:

Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

Should Christians nowadays sell their garments and buy swords? Should all of the disciples back then have sold their garments and bought swords?

:constern01: Hmmmm was that not said directly to the disciples just before his arrest and betrayal

(KJV Luke 22:38) So they said "Lord look here are two swords" and He said to them "It is enough"

How do you put that into context regarding the "Church"

arnoldo · 02-13-2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Why do Christians not sell all their earthly possessions and go follow their Lord? Was this just a suggestion? :huh:

I've heard it argued that Jesus was specifically talking to the RYR, because of the RYR's love of money.

Of course it's directed towards the RYR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

It's about how people can obey God and still be attached to the world. Whether this is the meaning of the story or not, I can't say. The passage is part of a longer one dealing with "Who can be saved?" I think the verses that come after are an important part of what is being said:

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Luk 18:18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luk 18:19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'!"
Luk 18:21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."
Luk 18:22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Luk 18:23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.

It's always a good idea to read the verse in question in context as indicated in the following:

Quote:

An Atheist misinterprets this passage. Jesus is not telling the young man the way of salvation because that is not what the young man asked. The young man asked not “what must I do” but “what good thing shall I do”. The young ruler has asked how to earn entrance into heaven. Jesus gives the young man three answers. First, he tells the young man that only God is good. This should have informed the young man that the standard was God’s perfection and no man would ever measure up to that standard. This young man apparently ignored this so Jesus continued by pointing him to the Law. The Law was given as a perfect standard. By keeping it, one could earn salvation. However, no person besides Jesus Christ ever fully kept the Law. For those who make think that keeping a bunch of rules would have been possible for at least a few, the standard covered not only deeds, but thoughts:

The Clear Gospel: Arthenor

Joan of Bark · 02-13-2009, 08:06 PM

Two more passages that bear on this discussion, from Matthew 6 (NIV):

Quote:

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

... and Mark 14

Quote:

3While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.

4Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, "Why this waste of perfume? 5It could have been sold for more than a year's wages[a] and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.

6"Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 7The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. 8She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. 9I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."

Interestingly, the parallel passages in Matthew and John leave out the part you can help them any time you want ...

This second passage seems to be a little out of character for JC. The evidence is strong that Jesus preached poverty for all who wished to be saved, perhaps because he thought the end of times was coming soon anyway.

And yes, Christians want to have their cake and eat it too on the issue of wealth.

arnoldo · 02-14-2009, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Rather than quote-mining the text, perhaps we might ask what the early church did. We see from Acts that there were different views on this.

Agreed. . . also a text should be read in context otherwise false generalizatons can result as in the following example.

Quote:

There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat. 8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? 9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. 10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. 12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial. 13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

From this verse it's self evident that the generalization could be made that Jesus didn't care about the poor since he didn't allow the precious ointment to be sold for the poor.

LogicandReason · 02-14-2009, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I apologise to you and LogicandReason if my reading offends.

Offends? Hopefully nobody is offended when discussing history, mythology, religion and such.

LogicandReason · 02-14-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trendkill

Luke 23 seems to suggest that it is not impossible for a rich man to be worthy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 23, KJV

50And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:

51(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them

he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.

52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

So he was "good" and "just" and "looked for the kindgom of God", yet he was well-off enough to donate a tomb for Jesus's burial.

Never mind the man is unknown to history, save a polemical written to convince us that Paul's revealed savior was in fact a real man.

LogicandReason · 02-14-2009, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

If god is real then he wants hearts not money.
He does not need money.
If getting a person to give all they have is the only way for them to be free to worship him honestly and in truth then that is the way it is.
I do not believe that such a god would require everyone to go down the same path. Some are able to obey god without being too attached to money, others not so able.
One could give all their possessions to the poor and still not please god if they did not give their heart to him.
Anyway the amount of money that people have is very relative - what is considered not much in one culture might seem like a hell of a lot in another culture.
This thread is better suited to a christian forum maybe for christians to argue about.

I offered it on christian-forum.net and nobody replied......

Solo · 02-14-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

An Atheist misinterprets this passage. Jesus is not telling the young man the way of salvation because that is not what the young man asked. The young man asked not “what must I do” but “what good thing shall I do”. The young ruler has asked how to earn entrance into heaven. Jesus gives the young man three answers. First, he tells the young man that only God is good. This should have informed the young man that the standard was God’s perfection and no man would ever measure up to that standard. This young man apparently ignored this so Jesus continued by pointing him to the Law. The Law was given as a perfect standard. By keeping it, one could earn salvation. However, no person besides Jesus Christ ever fully kept the Law. For those who make think that keeping a bunch of rules would have been possible for at least a few, the standard covered not only deeds, but thoughts:

The Clear Gospel: Arthenor

I disagree with this. The story originates with Mark and transparently presents a Pauline critique of the law. First, the man is definitely seeking salvation, "running" to the teacher to show him the way. Mark's Jesus gives him "the law" and the man says, "been there, done that". To a Pauline spiritualist insider, this would have been an exhilariting putdown of the Petrine legalists. (what ? he keeps the law and yet runs to Him for salvation ?)
"Why do you call me me 'good' ?", is a brilliant stroke of Mark. It's a difficult verse, relating to Paul's admission that he preached his gospel because of his illness. It binds to the end of the pericope: in Mk 10:30, Jesus promise of "hundredthfold" ...also in persecutions (which are both external and internal). Only God, to whom Jesus, in Paul's view, was answerable (1 Cor 15:28), was good.

Jesus "loving him" (which tells the Markan insider, that the rich man fully received the epiphany of Jesus self-revelation) tells the young man that if he wanted keep the vision of the kingdom, he would have to sell his possessions and follow Jesus (to the bitter end of the cross). As the salvation mission was something in which Jesus was unique in the eyes of the Paulines, Jesus says in effect, 'you can't do it'. So, the young man falls from his euphoric magnanimity, and in medical terms, cycles to depression.

The rich man tale originated transparently as an inside joke for a community drawn together by faith in the mysterious properties of manic excitation. People who experience "the spirit" are notoriously careless with money when high and come to grieve their "excess" when back to reality. None as deeply as people who are rich.

Jiri

LogicandReason · 02-14-2009, 05:52 AM

Matthew 6:24 goes on to specifically point out that Christianity and wealth don't mix when the evangelist places into the mouth of Jesus:

No one can serve two masters.....You cannot serve God and mammon

Solo's exegesis above is excellent and demonstrates that each biblical community, by writing words into Jesus' mouth, attempts to reinforce local opinion or interpretation of the myth.

arnoldo · 02-14-2009, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

If god is real then he wants hearts not money.
He does not need money.
If getting a person to give all they have is the only way for them to be free to worship him honestly and in truth then that is the way it is.
I do not believe that such a god would require everyone to go down the same path. Some are able to obey god without being too attached to money, others not so able.
One could give all their possessions to the poor and still not please god if they did not give their heart to him.
Anyway the amount of money that people have is very relative - what is considered not much in one culture might seem like a hell of a lot in another culture.
This thread is better suited to a christian forum maybe for christians to argue about.

I offered it on christian-forum.net and nobody replied......

See Post 21

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02-14-2009, 05:52 AM	#39
LogicandReason Regular Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 212	Matthew 6:24 goes on to specifically point out that Christianity and wealth don't mix when the evangelist places into the mouth of Jesus: No one can serve two masters.....You cannot serve God and mammon Solo's exegesis above is excellent and demonstrates that each biblical community, by writing words into Jesus' mouth, attempts to reinforce local opinion or interpretation of the myth.

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