Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ichabod crane · 06-30-2004, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Surely God must understand that the Bible is anything but convincing to thinking people?

God wrote the Bible like this for the same reason that he created the world with fossils in the rocks and made to look as if it were billions of years old: in order to test us and see who would believe him even in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. He also wanted to make sure that his time spent creating hell was not wasted, so that it could be filled with people like you who are impertinent enough to ask for reasons to believe him ...

Faith · 06-30-2004, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diana

The Bible says Jesus was God. As God, he knows everything, including the future.

Jesus claimed He spoke and acted on God's behalf. He said the way to the Father was through the Son. Did He ever actually claim to be God? Or only the Son of God?

Sven · 06-30-2004, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diana

1. The Bible is perfect and infallible.
2. It is the literal Word of God.
3. It reports nothing but the facts.
[snip]
This is your basic problem when you get into discussions of inerrancy with those who have already assumed the Bible is the inspired word of God and refuse to critically examine that assumption. You simply cannot win such an argument, because they will loop-de-loop forever, as Magus is so graciously demonstrating.

Hey, perhaps Magus likes to join the thread I started with the nice title "Why assume inerrancy?" and explain why exactly this assumption makes sense.

Sven · 06-30-2004, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

Jesus claimed He spoke and acted on God's behalf. He said the way to the Father was through the Son. Did He ever actually claim to be God? Or only the Son of God?

No idea. How could you know this? Nobody knows what Jesus actually said (or even if he existed) - we only have some 2nd and 3rd hands accounts of what he allegedly said.

gregor · 06-30-2004, 05:33 AM

Clive
Judge has, in this one thread, repeated his oft-posted positions of (i) preterism, (ii) aramaic primacy, and (iii) convoluted apologetics - the trifecta.

Speaking only for myself, I find no support for any of these claims.

Sven · 06-30-2004, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rifleman

An argument might go like this:
[1] If God is perfect, then He will do all things perfectly.
[2] The purpose of the Bible is (supposedly) to communicate God's word to mankind.
[3] The Bible does not fulfill its communicative purpose perfectly.
[4] Thus, the Bible cannot be God's method of communicating His word to mankind.

For some reasons (wonder why?) theists usually dispute your very first point [1]. So the argument (allegedly) fails.

Faith · 06-30-2004, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

No idea. How could you know this? Nobody knows what Jesus actually said (or even if he existed) - we only have some 2nd and 3rd hands accounts of what he allegedly said.

Then allow me to rephrase the question. In what verse of what chapter does the Bible claim Jesus is God?

Sven · 06-30-2004, 05:49 AM

If you are interested, in these threads the Aramaic primacy was already discussed with judge:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=61612
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=68153
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=67491
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=79974
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=79745
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=85495
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=85781

After having a look, ask yourself if another discussion of this would get anywhere.

Sven · 06-30-2004, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

Then allow me to rephrase the question. In what verse of what chapter does the Bible claim Jesus is God?

One example (perhaps there are more) is
Jn 10:30 "I and the Father are one." [Jesus presumably speaking]

But this is, of course, open to interpretation - as everything in the bible.

Gullwind · 06-30-2004, 05:55 AM

Here is one of my favorites.

2 Kings 8:25-26 "25 In the twelfth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel did Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah begin to reign. 26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel."

2 Chronicles 22:1-2 ". . . So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned. 2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri."

2 Kings says he was 22, 2 Chronicles says 42. The kicker is that both accounts say Jehoram his father was 40 when he died. How exactly a 40 year old man can have a 42 year old son is beyond me.

To be fair, there is another Ahaziah, earlier in the line of kings, but the other one is mentioned in the same place in both accounts and is clearly not this particular king.

06-30-2004, 05:49 AM	#118
Sven Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: outraged about the stiffling of free speech here Posts: 10,987	For clivedurdle and jbernier If you are interested, in these threads the Aramaic primacy was already discussed with judge: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=61612 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=68153 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=67491 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=79974 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=79745 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=85495 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=85781 After having a look, ask yourself if another discussion of this would get anywhere.

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06-30-2004, 05:33 AM	#115
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Clive Judge has, in this one thread, repeated his oft-posted positions of (i) preterism, (ii) aramaic primacy, and (iii) convoluted apologetics - the trifecta. Speaking only for myself, I find no support for any of these claims.

06-30-2004, 05:55 AM	#120
Gullwind Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,037	Here is one of my favorites. 2 Kings 8:25-26 "25 In the twelfth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel did Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah begin to reign. 26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel." 2 Chronicles 22:1-2 ". . . So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned. 2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri." 2 Kings says he was 22, 2 Chronicles says 42. The kicker is that both accounts say Jehoram his father was 40 when he died. How exactly a 40 year old man can have a 42 year old son is beyond me. To be fair, there is another Ahaziah, earlier in the line of kings, but the other one is mentioned in the same place in both accounts and is clearly not this particular king.

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