Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 02-03-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

This is like removing a brick wall brick by brick. Remove all the bricks, and soon the wall seems like it never existed in the first place.
Studied properly, christianity is just like the brick wall.

There are no walls or bricks, Christianity appears to be a illusion of a brick wall, an apparition, a dream.
As soon as you wake up, it's gone.

This is the the so-called "Paul" in 2 Corinthians 12.1-2

Quote:

".....I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord."

"And I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago( whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell God knoweth )........."

And I knew such a man, ( whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell, God knoweth.)

"Paul" cannot tell me anything. He is not sure. He must have been dreaming. That woke me up. Christianity is gone. No bricks or walls.

DCHindley · 02-03-2008, 09:43 AM

Didn't Robert Travers Herford propose, that Gahazi in b. Gitt. 56b, 57a, and b. Sotah. 47a, refers to Paul?

His book Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (or via: amazon.co.uk) was published by Williams & Norgate, in London, in 1903. The hypothesis could have reached Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in Srinigar, Kashmir, India, if the work translated was publshed between 1903 and his death in 1908.

According to a bit of internet sluthing, it looks like _Chashma-e-Masihi_ was penned 1st March, 1906. It is currently collected along with Mizra Gulam's other writings in _Roohani Khazain_ volume 20, 1984.
http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/las...ahmad_pf.shtml
http://www.alislam.org/urdu/rk/

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by paarsurrey

Hi

I understand from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1838-1908, the PromisedMessiah, in his book Chashma-e-Masihi in Urdu, I have translated a passage from it herein below:

“It should be remembered that Paul was a deadly enemy of Jesus, and as is written in the history books of Jews, he had certain motives with the Jews which they did not fulfill; so Paul became a Christian to harm Jews to avenge from them for his lost ambitions, he apparently claimed that he saw a vision though, in which he had met Jesus.”

Is there any history book of Jews which mentions the above?

Thanks

No, there is no mention of Paul in Jewish history books.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Islam is conjectured to have adopted some of the history and doctrines of the non-orthodox Christian sects, and this appears to be an Ebionite view of Paul.

Toto · 02-03-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Didn't Robert Travers Herford propose, that Gahazi in b. Gitt. 56b, 57a, and b. Sotah. 47a, refers to Paul?

His book Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (or via: amazon.co.uk) was published by Williams & Norgate, in London, in 1903. The hypothesis could have reached Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in Srinigar, Kashmir, India, if the work translated was publshed between 1903 and his death in 1908.

...

Interesting. That book is available online here (warning: 15 mb download, 463 pages in pdf format based on jpgs of the original pages, and not searchable, but the discussion is at p 97.)

Note that Herford has been accused of seeing references to Jesus in the Talmud where they do not exist.

He finds 3 points of comparison between Gahazi and Paul, but one of them is that Gahazi was supposed to have set up an image of the equivalent of God. Herford asserts that the churches in Paul's time contained images of Christ, but I thought it was agreed that early Christian churches did not in fact contain images of Jesus until much later than Paul.

Herford himself is not very confident of the identification of Gahazi as Paul.

Sheshbazzar · 02-03-2008, 07:06 PM

Cheese, when all the chrestani pagans had to do was call their one old statues by another name? no problemo!

Toto · 02-03-2008, 07:31 PM

When Jesus was portrayed in surviving murals, he looked like a Greek god.

If there were any statues, they have disappeared completely, without even leaving a record.

Sheshbazzar · 02-03-2008, 07:57 PM

I tend to believe that there are still a lot of those statues still around, just that there are very few that can we can positively identify as being called by any particular name at any particular time. "Zeus when it was first carved, conveniently renamed "Jesus"<sic> by the chrestani for a few decades, and today again only identified with "Zeus". Go ahead and take a look at those statues of "Zeus",
Oh I get it! that just must have been a statue of "Jesus'" identical twin brother!

DCHindley · 02-03-2008, 08:15 PM

What, exactly, are you talking about? Say "Hi" to king Cyrus for me!

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I tend to believe that there are still a lot of those statues still around, just that there are very few that can we can positively identify as being called by any particular name at any particular time. "Zeus when it was first carved, conveniently renamed "Jesus"<sic> by the chrestani for a few decades, and today again only identified with "Zeus". Go ahead and take a look at those statues of "Zeus",
Oh I get it! that just must have been a statue of "Jesus'" identical twin brother!

DCHindley · 02-03-2008, 08:22 PM

It doesn't really matter if he was right or not (he admits to erring on the side of possible false positive identifications in order to capture all possible references to Jesus, christians or christianity). It matters whether the good Mahdi thought he was right. Remember too we are talking about a Muslim's perception of the Jesus of the Christians at the turn of the century in pre-partition India. In this same period Theosophic books were available in Bombay.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Didn't Robert Travers Herford propose, that Gahazi in b. Gitt. 56b, 57a, and b. Sotah. 47a, refers to Paul?

His book Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (or via: amazon.co.uk) was published by Williams & Norgate, in London, in 1903. The hypothesis could have reached Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in Srinigar, Kashmir, India, if the work translated was publshed between 1903 and his death in 1908.

...

Interesting. That book is available online here (warning: 15 mb download, 463 pages in pdf format based on jpgs of the original pages, and not searchable, but the discussion is at p 97.)

Note that Herford has been accused of seeing references to Jesus in the Talmud where they do not exist.

He finds 3 points of comparison between Gahazi and Paul, but one of them is that Gahazi was supposed to have set up an image of the equivalent of God. Herford asserts that the churches in Paul's time contained images of Christ, but I thought it was agreed that early Christian churches did not in fact contain images of Jesus until much later than Paul.

Herford himself is not very confident of the identification of Gahazi as Paul.

Sheshbazzar · 02-03-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

What, exactly, are you talking about? Say "Hi" to king Cyrus for me!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Gahazi was supposed to have set up an image of the equivalent of God. Herford asserts that the churches in Paul's time contained images of Christ, but I thought it was agreed that early Christian churches did not in fact contain images of Jesus until much later than Paul.

"Chrestian" images of "Chrestos" Zeus> Duz>Deus> Dio> the gawd Christos Dios. :devil1:

Toto · 02-03-2008, 09:09 PM

OK - not sure where this is going.

Statue of Zeus in Olympia

Quote:

The face of the statue later is used in eastern Catholic depictions of Jesus and is still common in churches throughout the world

On the other hand, the earliest images of Jeus are much later than Paul is usually dated.

Images of Jesus

Quote:

The earliest surviving Christian art comes from the late 3rd and early 4th centuries on the walls of Christian tombs in the catacombs. Here, and only here, Jesus is portrayed in two different ways: older, bearded and robed and another as a bare faced youth holding a wand. . . .

Later the more familiar long haired and bearded Jesus figure came to dominate. Egyptologist John Romer, in his Seven Wonders of the World, has pointed out the portrayal of Jesus is very similar to the surviving portrayals of Zeus or Jupiter, the father of the pagan Gods, who was the protector of the Roman Empire.

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02-03-2008, 07:06 PM	#14
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Cheese, when all the chrestani pagans had to do was call their one old statues by another name? no problemo!

02-03-2008, 07:31 PM	#15
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	When Jesus was portrayed in surviving murals, he looked like a Greek god. If there were any statues, they have disappeared completely, without even leaving a record.

02-03-2008, 07:57 PM	#16
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I tend to believe that there are still a lot of those statues still around, just that there are very few that can we can positively identify as being called by any particular name at any particular time. "Zeus when it was first carved, conveniently renamed "Jesus"<sic> by the chrestani for a few decades, and today again only identified with "Zeus". Go ahead and take a look at those statues of "Zeus", Oh I get it! that just must have been a statue of "Jesus'" identical twin brother!

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