spin

In the past I have listed a number of transliterations showing that the Peshitta is a translation from Greek in which a number of Greek and even Latin words made it directly into the Syriac of the Peshitta. As judge has recently reasserted his belief in the priority of the Peshitta over the Greek gospels, ie that the gospels were originally written in Syriac then translated into Greek, I thought I might provide some more interesting examples of words taken directly from the Greek into the Peshitta translation, in order to show judge the error of his ways.

Pentecost

I have already pointed out that the Greek word for "gospel", ie evaggelion, was transliterated into Syriac 'wnglywn, whereas in other cases the Syriac sbrt' is used. Just as interesting is the fact that the first day of the festival of Weeks, ie seven weeks after the Passover = 50 days, that we know by the Greek Pentecost, is transliterated into the Peshitta as pn+kws+', Ac 2:1, despite the fact that there is no dearth of words in Aramaic available for the term. Incredible that they should choose to transliterate the term Pentacost rather than use a Semitic word!

Paraclete

John's special word for the holy spirit, "paraclete", is transliterated into Syriac! In Jn 14, eg, 14:16 we find prqlt'. Such central religious terms as "gospel", "pentecost" and "paraclete" don't have homegrown Syriac terms? One is expected to believe that an Aramaic community which is supposed to have invented christianity didn't use Aramaic terms for such central ideas?

Law

The word for law, in Greek nomos, is transliterated in the Peshitta as nmws', though you wouldn't think there was a lack of words in Aramaic, as Daniel and Ezra indicate when they use both TWRH and DT. Pretty astounding use of Greek here.

Face

There is a wonderful Semitic expression, "to fall on one's face", found throughout the Hebrew bible. When in the Aramaic part of Daniel Nebuchadnezzar fell on his, the word used was 'NP, yet, when the Peshitta uses the expression, it invariably uses the Greek word for face, proswpon (made up of two Greek parts pros "near, towards" and ops -- from which our "optical" is derived), in the form prcwp'. Why transliterate the Greek for such a well-worn Semitic expression?

Place names

Why do Greek versions of placenames such as Azotus and Saron, which have nice Semitic versions (Ashdod and Sharon), end up in Aramaic transliterated from Greek 'zwtws and srwn'?

soudarion

The cloth that is placed over a dead person's head when the body is wrapped, called in Greek soudarion (originally from Latin and only used in Greek in the NT), is transliterated into Syriac swdr', Jn 11:44, good old Lazarus (but also Jesus, Jn 20:17). If they really did use soudaria in that part of the world, why not use the local term? As the word was not in common circulation in Greek, but available in the Greek gospel of John, this seems the most likely source for the Syriac word. (And as I have pointed out elsewhere, this notion of soudarion along with the body of Jesus being wrapped in bandages oQonia functionally kills the Turin shroud as being authentic.)

Here is a grab bag of other words rendered in Syriac in their Greek forms.

Though this information is given in order to show judge the error of his ways, judge has proven in the past that he is quite resilient to evidence, as was the case with all the Latin words which made it into Syriac through Greek. His only response was to list a some Semitic words found in the Greek NT -- such as rabbi and abba --, which is a little like pointing out Italian words -- such as pizza, pasta and piazza -- in an English travelogue about Italy and assuming the programme was originally done in Italian. When the words are common or central ones in the language, then one should start to worry.

To recap, there is a sufficient load of words derived from the Greek NT to be found in the Peshitta to indicate that the Greek NT was the source of the Peshitta NT.


spin

judge

As with your "explanations in the texts" you only apply this logic one way. many Aramaic words exist in the greek texts as well.


The evidence for an Aramaic original NT is far more comprehensive. We have words that have been mistranslated.
Romans 5:7 is an example


This seems pretty clearly a mistake from Aramaic into greek and not the other way around. The greek translator confused two aramaic words and as a result the greek makes no sense.

here are the two Aramaic words.




There are more examples of this but none the other way. Unless spin has some?

Believers in the western world have for centuries believed that only their tradition could possibly be the correct one. Only Roman Catholicism or Protestantism could be the chosen church. Only the church councils they champion could possibly be the "right" ones.



Aramaic speaking belivers took the gospel east and believers within the Roman Empire took it west.
The greek translations went west. Aramaic speaking believers took Aramaic versions east.

An entirely seperate group of christians took the gospel to the east as I said.
The Church within the Roman empire did not. This group held their own councils where they declared their independence from those inside the empire.


Those groups inside the empire which tended to use greek translations did not go on missionary activity to india or china. this was done by Aramaic speaking believers.


This group was probably the largest on earth 1000 years ago, but of course the "winners" write the history. ;-). Under Tamerlane their numbers were greatly reduced.


This group is an extremely ancient branch of christianity. Their liturgy is very ancient. It does not contain the words of the institution "...this is my body" , which appears in all liturgies by late 2nd cent.

What did they use from earliest times? Greek NT?

judge

But how does one test whether these words are derived from the greek NT and not just derived from foreign words?

Is there a way to test your theory?

judge

Although we have been over this before I might as well give a couple of examples

The greek of Luke 1:15 contains the aramaic word sakira, meaning "strong drink". Did the greeks not have word for strong drink?

Matthew 2:11 has Lebonthah or frankincense.

So this kind of thing works both ways. Languages and cultures borrow words. Some words come into popularity at different times.

But spin do you have any example of words being mistranslated?
I have given the example of Romans 5:7

S.C.Carlson

The biggest problem with this example is that this supposed mistake only works in Estrangelo and its descendant scripts. However, Estrangelo wasn't developed until the fifth century.

In the second century, the relevant time-frame for this supposed translation error, Syriac was written in the Palmyrene cursive script (Estrangelo's predecessor) or in the Aramaic square script. In both scripts, however, the two letters are quite distinct. (A table of Palmyrene is found here.)

Furthermore, no Greek or Latin witness preserves the Peshitta reading, and Greek and Latin reading is harder reading. The fact that the easier variant is limited to one tradition and the late script it was written in makes it a very straightforward case that the variant is an error in the Peshitta.

Stephen

spin

You still haven't got over trying to argue pizza and pasta in an English travelogue about Italy.

There sheer weight of examples of Greek and Italian words in the Peshitta must make your mind boggle, considering the text according to you is based on an Aramaic original written in Palestine.

You failed dismally to deal with the fact that there a number of explanations in the Greek text rendered necessary because they regard place-names. Thomas (t'wm') called Twin (t'm') is the most obvious and hilarious that comes to mind in the Peshitta.

I have been collecting these examples through casual examination of the texts. I have only reached Acts. I expect many more if I continue.

Why would the Palestinian Aramaic community recognise evangelion in Mk? Why would they need a Greek word for Pentecost? Why would the most Semitic of gospels, John, use the Greek paraclete?

Your failure to respond to these sorts of questions, shifting the argument onto anything you can think of, indicates that you have no reply, while the easiest explanation for Greek versions of Semitic place-names being transliterated into Syriac is because that's how the translator found the names and didn't recognise them. The easiest explanation for finding Greek terms for everyday items in the gospels in the Peshitta rather than Aramaic terms is because the translator found them in the text and didn't or couldn't do anything better than transliterate them. Going in the other direction, it's only obvious that we should find a few token Semitic words in the NT, afterall, the stories are set in Palestine. They were developed by people with some knowledge of Palestine and many probably had a Semitic background. While the few paltry examples you give can easily fit this scenario, you haven't got empty hands in response to the vastly greater body of Greek and Latin words, and some of those important to the religion. And I was quite shocked to see "face/proswpon" transliterated into Syriac. This is unthinkable.

Try again judge. You've got to do better than your reruns like

And I have pulled apart so many of your supposed mistranslations from Aramaic. Remember "gowra", for example. That was downright silly, if not creative. You throw up these "mistranslations" as though you understood them, but you don't, so why do you expect me to do the work that you haven't done?

I find your faith in Peshitta priority without basis.


spin

Peter Kirby

Spin,

Thanks for the work you have done.

best,
Peter Kirby

judge

Thank you for this Stephen.

I wonder do you know which script the 6 a.d. Syriac inscription os the 3rd century parchment is in?

If this were the only example of mistranslation your case would be quite strong. But as there are many examples of mistranslations from Aramaic to Greek and apprently none the other way, I think more consideration is due.

You will note that spin is unable to produce any (and I'm sure he would love to) ;-)

Acts for example, which spin has been going over, contains mistranslations from Aramaic into greek, and not the other way..

See Acts 2:24 for example.

The Aramaic word here can mean either pain or rope/cord.

The greek translator wrongly inserted agony/pain.

It should read cords of death!!



2 Samuel 22:6 - Where the verse reads - "The cords of sheol surrounded me ; the snares of death confronted me"

Psalms 18:5 - "The cords of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me."

Psalms 116:3 - "The cords of death encompassed me, And the terrors of Sheol came upon me; I found distress and sorrow."

There are many more examples.

this can only be exaplained if the aramaic came first.

judge

Putting words in my mouth? ;-)

I have made no such claim that they were written in palestine. I am not aware of any evidence for this.



I will restate my question to you.

If we cannot test your theory then how can it be a good theory?

What good is a theory that can't be falsified?

judge

Well that's Ok. :-)

If it is true that the NT was written in Aramaic then it is only natural that those holding "establishment" points of view will resist.

Eventually the 'old guard" dies off.

Wishing you all the best though as I do get a lot out of your posts here. And not just the ones I am involved in.