Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jack the Bodiless · 07-08-2004, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

Yes, if you go back and read lp's post that I am responding to he claims that the ordinary people initiated major building programs and produced major works of art, but the fact is they did not. Of course, they were used by the ruling elite to help THEM produce such things but they did not do such things themselves.

Not true (as usual).

This arose from your bizarre attempt to justify rape: "Though I do admit that rape was not considered as serious in ancient times because everyone was just trying to survive ie everyone was on the edge of death".

If everyone was on the verge of death, they couldn't have built those monuments, regardless of who commissioned them. They would have died.

The invention of agriculture gave people time to do other things when it wasn't harvest time: they were no longer "on the edge of death". Try asking your local history professor about such matters, Ed.

lpetrich · 07-08-2004, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

... if you go back and read lp's post that I am responding to he claims that the ordinary people initiated major building programs and produced major works of art, but the fact is they did not..

Where did I claim that they had *initiated* such projects?

They could not have possibly done any work of such projects if they had been as half-starved as you claim, Ed.

Ed · 07-08-2004, 09:12 PM

Quote:

=lpetrich(do christ-on-a-stick and QueenofSwords really tell "lies about reality"?)
Originally Posted by Ed
Trying to convince people God does not exist.

lp: How do they supposedly do that?

By arguing against His existence.

Quote:

Ed: There are clues in all those stories that reveal that the real reasons these young ladies left Christianity had nothing to do with the "lack of evidence".

lp: How would that be apparent from christ-on-a-stick's Salvation Story?

Or from anything that QueenofSwords has stated? Like her self-intro. When she started some self-directed Bible study, she discovered that "I couldn't believe half the stuff I read; the other half was believable and very, very sad", and started becoming skeptical. And as explained in this reading-the-Bible thread, she refused to practice selective reading. As described in this atheist-testimony thread, she found the eternal damnation of her Muslim friends and the rejection of evolution too much to swallow.

Only a Christian would understand the subtle clues.

Quote:

lp: More recently, in this Heaven thread, she has stated:
Originally Posted by QueenofSwords
Give me some more reasons as to why I would want to spend eternity in the presence of the god who slaughtered the Egyptian first-born and ordered women to be stoned if they didn't bleed on their wedding nights. Then we'll talk.

Ed, does it look like she has any ulterior motives other than dislike of cruelty? Seriously.

I can't explain it to atheist, you wouldn't see or understand it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich
(everybody having committed some sins...)

But does everybody deserve eternal damnation as a result? Even if they otherwise do lots of Good Things?

Ed: Yes, because we never do good things for the right reason.

lp: And what is the "right" reason? And why does failure to do good things for the reason indicate that one deserves eternal damnation? Yes, being agonizingly tortured forever and ever and ever.

And Ed, don't you think the idea of eternal damnation is a bit on the cruel side?

The right reason is doing it for God and his glory. Once you understand the magnitude of God's extreme moral purity, ie Holiness, you realize how eternal damnation is the natural consequence of rebelling against Him, ie doing wrong, including doing good for the wrong reason.

lpetrich · 07-09-2004, 12:21 AM

(do christ-on-a-stick and QueenofSwords really tell "lies about reality"?)
(how they supposedly try to convince people that God does not exist...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

By arguing against His existence.

Ed, where do they do that? Please be explicit. Like saying that CoaS or QoS argued against the existence of the Christian God in such-a-such a thread. Preferably with its URL.

Quote:

There are clues in all those stories that reveal that the real reasons these young ladies left Christianity had nothing to do with the "lack of evidence".

(my request for details...)

Quote:

Only a Christian would understand the subtle clues.

That seems like an awfully weak answer.

(on whether QoS has ulterior motives for disliking some of the actions of the Biblical God...)

Quote:

I can't explain it to atheist, you wouldn't see or understand it.

More weakness of answer.

(what is the right reason for doing something right...)

Quote:

The right reason is doing it for God and his glory.

And never any other? Like caring for someone else?

Quote:

Once you understand the magnitude of God's extreme moral purity, ie Holiness, you realize how eternal damnation is the natural consequence of rebelling against Him, ie doing wrong, including doing good for the wrong reason.

Seems like an awfully thin-skinned and unforgiving entity.

Ed · 07-11-2004, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greyline

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpetrich
And what is the "right" reason? And why does failure to do good things for the reason indicate that one deserves eternal damnation? Yes, being agonizingly tortured forever and ever and ever.

gl: Isn't the right reason the anticipation of eternal life? Morally bankrupt though it may be.

No, the right reason is for love of God and His glory, see my post to lp above.

Ed · 07-11-2004, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resistor

Originally Posted by Ed
A well trained swordsman would end up disembowelling a well trained swordswoman almost everytime. Sorry to burst your bubble.

resistor: What Jack the Bodiless said was that a woman could disembowel an attacker almost as well as a man. Someone who can disembowel a person almost as well as that person can disembowel them would indeed be disemboweled almost every time. I doubt that Jack the Bodiless was talking about a well trained swordsman.

Well most good commanders would put a well trained swordsman up against a well trained swordswoman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed
Because God would have let most of them live fairly long lives and die of natural causes. God only killed using hebrews those peoples that occupied the Promised Land.

res: If God would have let them live, why did he allow them to be killed??

Because generally he allows people free will, even evil people.

Amaleq13 · 07-11-2004, 11:06 PM

Unless this thread starts involving passages from the Bible, it will not survive in this forum.

Jack the Bodiless · 07-12-2004, 03:23 AM

Ed, it is now 17 days since I issued this challenge:

Quote:

So here's a little exercise for you, Ed.

If you STILL wish to argue that Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart in Exodus 7:13, then you need to explain why this happened "as God had said".

This is a reference to Exodus 7:3, where he clearly said that HE would harden Pharaoh's heart.

If you still wish to pretend otherwise, then YOU must provide the Biblical verse in which God said, prior to Exodus 7:13, that PHARAOH was going to harden HIS OWN heart.

Shall I accept your surrender?

Amaleq13 · 07-12-2004, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Shall I accept your surrender?

If he doesn't, I've got a ticket to Elsewhere for this thread in my pocket.

Ed · 07-12-2004, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

Originally Posted by Ed
Over the last 2000 years God has demonstrated His powers to thousands of skeptics, including C.S. Lewis, originally an atheist, and me, originally an agnostic.

lp: C.S. Lewis was talked into converting; he didn't watch the Thames River get parted in the fashion of the Red Sea in Exodus. In fact, one does have to wonder why we don't see such big miracles anymore -- if they ever happened.

An atheist converting is more of a supernatural event than the river parting. "Big miracles" were used to establish the canon. But as I said someone converting esp. an atheist is an even bigger miracle.

Quote:

lp: And let's let Ed speak for himself as to what qualifies as "God demonstrating his powers" to him.

I was initially impressed with his miracles of nature but he also has established an amazing chain of events not necessarily supernatural, that have demonstrated his powers to me. And I have experienced a supernatural relationship with Him.

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07-11-2004, 11:06 PM	#347
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Unless this thread starts involving passages from the Bible, it will not survive in this forum.

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