Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 01-19-2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Were Athenagoras or Theophilus ever in Rome, or just in Athens and Antioch respectively??

Were there Christians in Rome at 110 CE? Pliny the Magistrate and Lawyer was NOT ever involved in any trials of Christians in Rome.

Theophilus was a Christian because he was annointed and Pliny's Christians were found to believe Depraved Excessive superstitions AFTER some were Tortured.

Pliny had NO idea whether the Christians were Lying about their beliefs so he TORTURED some.

The Jesus story was Fabricated AFTER c 110 CE. Pliny NEVER heard the Jesus story.

aa5874 · 01-20-2012, 11:05 AM

Based on the Letter to Trajan from Pliny the Jesus cult of Christians did NOT exist or was unknown up to 110 CE in Rome.

Now, this is letter appears to corroborate "First Apology" attributed to Justin Martyr where he explains the beliefs of the Jesus cult of Christians to the Roman Emperor, the Senate and the people of Rome.

It would have been unnecessary for Justin to have explained the beliefs and practises of the Jesus cult of Christians if they were ALREADY known for 120 years throughout the Roman Empire.

This is Justin telling the people of Rome about a typical Sunday church meeting.

"First Apology"LXVII

Quote:

......And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration...

"First Apology" suggest that it was sometime in the 2nd century that the Jesus cult of Christians was established and NOT 100 years earlier as suggested by Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings.

Duvduv · 01-20-2012, 11:23 AM

Except that there are many elements in the Justin book that take for granted the knowledge of the reader that he knows what the writer is talking about. I have already discussed this point. When Justin rambles on about the Christ he assumes that the reader knows what he is talking about, including the unknown Hebrew prophets, because he never explains any of it.

aa5874 · 01-20-2012, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Except that there are many elements in the Justin book that take for granted the knowledge of the reader that he knows what the writer is talking about. I have already discussed this point. When Justin rambles on about the Christ he assumes that the reader knows what he is talking about, including the unknown Hebrew prophets, because he never explains any of it.

It could NOT be that Justin took for granted that the readers knew what he was talking about when he is probably the ONLY apologetic writer to METICULOUSLY describe a 2nd century assemply of the Jesus cult of Christians.

I know of NO other FIRST HAND apologetic source of the 2nd century that EXPLAINED what happened in the Church of the Jesus cult in the 2nd century.

Justin Martyr's writings are most detailed, consistent and do not contain the Massive lies of Irenaeus.

You won't find this in "Against Heresies".

Justin Martyr took NOTHING for granted. Examine "First Apology"

Quote:

......And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration...

Writings attributed to Justin Martyr are ABSOLUTELY fantastic.

They are compatible with the Letter to Trajan. There was NO Jesus cult of Christians before 110 CE.

aa5874 · 01-20-2012, 11:15 PM

The Pliny letter to Trajan about Christians has destroyed virtually everything claimed by the Church and its writers, including the NT Canon, up to 110 CE.

Now, to show that the Christians in Bythinia had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesus cult we will examine the Letter and note that Pliny did EXECUTE some of the Christians even though he did NOT know what they believed.

Quote:

....Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure:

I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed.

For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished.

There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome...

Not one Church writer remembered a single of one those supposedly MARTYRED by Pliny the younger.

Tertullian wrote about the persecution of Christians under Trajan but nothing about the Martyrs of Bythinia.

Euebius mentioned that there was a persecution of Christians under Trajan when Pliny was in Bythinia but again No Christians that were executed in Bythinia were named.

Jerome mentioned there was a persecution in the time of Trajan but did not mentioned the Christians executed in Bythinia.

Severus mentioned there was a persecution of Christians in the time of Trajan but did NOT mention the Christians executed in Bythinia.

It is clear that the Christians executed by Pliny were NOT of a Jesus cult and were NOT known by the Church writers.

rlogan · 01-20-2012, 11:39 PM

If you put Josephus together with the complete Pliny-Trajan correspondence, then it looks like Christians evolved first in the 90's CE.

It is important to note that Trajan, in his response, evinces no knowledge of Christians either. He merely indicates that Pliny has taken the correct course, and admonishes him not to take secret informant testimony against Christians. (Pliny had lists of Christians provided to him by informants, and that is what resulted in his interrogations.)

There is no mention of Christianity in Josephus' writings (or any other contemporaneouos historian for that matter), but Pliny's investigation does put the longest practicioners into the 90's CE. So that is the dawn of Christianity.

But no Jesus, no disciples, no Paul.

la70119 · 01-20-2012, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

There is no mention of Christianity in Josephus' writings (or any other contemporaneouos historian for that matter), but Pliny's investigation does put the longest practicioners into the 90's CE. So that is the dawn of Christianity.

Except for that cuckoo's egg (dog's egg more like!!) called "Testimonium Flavianum" (Ant. 18.3.3) and the Jamesian reference (Ant. 20.9.1) which could easily be an interpolation.

la70119 · 01-20-2012, 11:56 PM

And the bizaare forgeries in Slavonic Josephus.

maryhelena · 01-21-2012, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

And the bizaare forgeries in Slavonic Josephus.

Care to detail what these 'forgeries' are?

maryhelena · 01-21-2012, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

If you put Josephus together with the complete Pliny-Trajan correspondence, then it looks like Christians evolved first in the 90's CE.

It is important to note that Trajan, in his response, evinces no knowledge of Christians either. He merely indicates that Pliny has taken the correct course, and admonishes him not to take secret informant testimony against Christians. (Pliny had lists of Christians provided to him by informants, and that is what resulted in his interrogations.)

There is no mention of Christianity in Josephus' writings (or any other contemporaneouos historian for that matter), but Pliny's investigation does put the longest practicioners into the 90's CE. So that is the dawn of Christianity.

But no Jesus, no disciples, no Paul.

Check out the two references above, post #2. These references indicate that there were christians in the time of Augustus - who died in 14 c.e.

What aa5874 is bringing up in this thread relates to followers of the figure of Jesus. That is a separate issue from the question of what early, or proto-christianity, might have involved.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-20-2012, 11:23 AM	#13
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Except that there are many elements in the Justin book that take for granted the knowledge of the reader that he knows what the writer is talking about. I have already discussed this point. When Justin rambles on about the Christ he assumes that the reader knows what he is talking about, including the unknown Hebrew prophets, because he never explains any of it.

01-20-2012, 11:39 PM	#16
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	If you put Josephus together with the complete Pliny-Trajan correspondence, then it looks like Christians evolved first in the 90's CE. It is important to note that Trajan, in his response, evinces no knowledge of Christians either. He merely indicates that Pliny has taken the correct course, and admonishes him not to take secret informant testimony against Christians. (Pliny had lists of Christians provided to him by informants, and that is what resulted in his interrogations.) There is no mention of Christianity in Josephus' writings (or any other contemporaneouos historian for that matter), but Pliny's investigation does put the longest practicioners into the 90's CE. So that is the dawn of Christianity. But no Jesus, no disciples, no Paul.

01-20-2012, 11:56 PM	#18
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	And the bizaare forgeries in Slavonic Josephus.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.