skinumb

I'm having an irrational (not me, him) discussion with a confused Christian on another board.

We differ over the interpretation of one of the 'popular' Ten Commandments.

I reckon the original and more correct translation is 'Thou Shalt Not Murder', and that limits the effect of the 'law'. He asserts that the translation is 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', and that means not kill anything, not just people.

I wonder if any kind scholarly soul could give me a definitive translation from the original.

I've also argued that the definitive 10 Commandments, imo, are as described in Exodus 34. God's second edition, so to speak, so this isn't really one of them, but that's another story.

Rich

Amaleq13

I believe this earlier thread will provide the answers you seek:

'Murder' vs. 'Kill'

skinumb

Excellent, thanks. Exactly what I was looking for.

I did first use the search funcion, but that thread didn't come up.

Cheers
Rich

Shadowy Man

That would make for some very hungry people!

skinumb

To be fair it seems I misunderstood him. He's come back with this:

"Well it wasn't talking just about murder. You like they missed the entire point. It was talking of any form of killing you can do to a fellow human. From mental, spiritual, physical, to social and economic. Hell even mere thinking of killing is considered like you have done it. I can assure you, like me and everyone on this forum, you have broken that commandment many times during your life time."

rich

Joan of Bark

Interestingly, there is another translation of the Hebrew word that a scholar has put forward; that is, that the word should be translated as stalk and kill. I'll try to find the reference and post it later.

You shall not kill, as a literal command, is clearly ridiculous. Every time you have a bath you kill thousands of microbes. And God commanded the Hebrews to eat meat, so obviously He was not against killing.

Joan of Bark

Okay, I've looked but I can't find the reference to the Hebrew word as stalk and kill. If I remember correctly, the thrust of the argument was that the same word that is translated as kill or murder is used in another part of the Tanakh to describe a killing by a predatory animal. In other words, the commandment might be more accurately translated as You shall not kill with pre-meditation. Now you could argue that this is the same as saying You shall not murder, but perhaps it could also mean that you can be forgiven for killing another in the heat of the moment; that is, killing is only murder when it is coldly calculated. Where this leaves the issue of hunting I have no clue.

storytime

As all the commandments were given to Israel alone, and not to any other peoples, I would conclude "thou shalt not kill" to have its meaning in Israelites not killing one another, because God commanded the Israelites to kill and destroy all the non Israelite people living in the land of Canaan in order to possess their land. Even if other people were at peace, God commanded the Israelites to vex them in order to stir up trouble and then blame them for defending themselves against the Israelites. Sounds alot like the strategy of Dubya in his constructing his war on Iraq, just vex them until they are at least returning insults and then go in for the kill. And God commanded Dubya just as he did Moses and each say themselves justified.

rfmwinnie

I remember somewhere in my fundie days learning about the "cities of refuge" in the OT. Does anyone else remember that? From what I was taught (so take with a HUGE grain of salt) the cities of refuge were supposed to be spread throughout Israel so that if someone accident killed someone else they could feel to one of these cities. It had to be on accident like by falling off a roof that didn't have the proper boundary around it. A family member could "avenge" your death by killing the negligent person unless they fled to a city of refuge. And they had to stay in the city for so long because if they stepped out and the family member found out they could still get killed.

Ok I looked it up and it is Numbers 35.

I only mention that because that would make the whole stalk and kill idea much more valid. Obviously the OT made allowances for So it would seem this 10 Commandment would probably be referring at least to murder and maybe even only pre-meditated murder.

Of course the very fact it so unclear does not argue for it being a good command!

Sheshbazzar

Given that Torah gives express commandments that "Thou SHALT kill" your fellow man under certain circumstances.
(see for example Ex. 22:18, 22:19, 22:20, Lev. 20:11, 20:13, 20:16, Deut. 13:8-10, 13:15, and 17:6-13)
That Christian's "explanation" and interpretation of The Commandment of The Law is not at all in line with how the rest of that very same code of The Law interpreted and applied it.
"Pick and choose apologetics", and just re-interpret or ignore anything that might cause discomfort, or reveal the error in the reasoning.