Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 06-05-2007, 12:45 PM

Paul writes this in Romans 7:24.

Clearly, Paul knew what happened to corpses and he wanted out of there.

The verse is very troubling for Christian apologists.

The Bishop of Durham, NT Wright, wants to believe that it was Gnostiscs who wanted to be rescued from their bodies and not early Christians like Paul.

Accoridngly, Wright can write a 700-plus page book on early Christian beliefs on tbe resurrection, and never once quote that verse.

Even more amazingly, NT Wright wrote a commentary on Romans chapters 1-8, and when he comes to deal with this verse, he quotes it in his commentary (page 132) as Paul saying 'Who is going to rescue me?'

Can anybody think of one reason why a believer in corpses-rising-from-graves like Wright, would edit out 'this body of death', frm his quote of 'Who will rescue me from this body of death?'

No Robots · 06-05-2007, 01:00 PM

Most Christians, like most people, are in the main materialists. Thus they cannot dissociate their notion of self from their own bodies. Paul had a thoroughly spiritualized outlook, but he was apparently often at pains to raise the consciousness of his flocks (cf 1Cor. 15)

Toto · 06-05-2007, 01:49 PM

Are these the books of which you speak?

The Resurrection of the Son of God (Christian Origins and the Question of God) (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Paul for Everyone: Romans: Chapters 1-8 (for Everyone) (or via: amazon.co.uk)

I'm not sure how to interpret that verse in context:

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul seems to be talking about his sinful bodily urges. How does this relate to the resurrection, when he would get some sort of transformed body?

Is there sex in heaven? Pizza? Beer?

But then Paul is never very clear. If he were, we could lay off a lot of theologians and exegetes.

Steven Carr · 06-05-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Are these the books of which you speak?

The Resurrection of the Son of God (Christian Origins and the Question of God) (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Paul for Everyone: Romans: Chapters 1-8 (for Everyone) (or via: amazon.co.uk)

I'm not sure how to interpret that verse in context:

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul seems to be talking about his sinful bodily urges. How does this relate to the resurrection, when he would get some sort of transformed body?

Is there sex in heaven? Pizza? Beer?

But then Paul is never very clear. If he were, we could lay off a lot of theologians and exegetes.

Those are indeed the books.

I am not 'sure' how to interpret those verses.

But Paul clearly wants to be rescued from his body, not have his body rescued.

Solo · 06-05-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

But Paul clearly wants to be rescued from his body, not have his body rescued.

Here's Dostoyevsky's Prince Myshkin describing his "unio mystica":

Quote:

The Idiot, Part II., Chapter 5.

This must be thought out; it was clear that there had been no hallucination at the station then, either; something had actually happened to him, on both occasions; there was no doubt of it. But again a loathing for all mental exertion overmastered him; he would not think it out now, he would put it off and think of something else. He remembered that during his epileptic fits, or rather immediately preceding them, he had always experienced a moment or two when his whole heart, and mind, and body seemed to wake up to vigour and light; when he became filled with joy and hope, and all his anxieties seemed to be swept away for ever; these moments were but presentiments, as it were, of the one final second (it was never more than a second) in which the fit came upon him. That second, of course, was inexpressible. When his attack was over, and the prince reflected on his symptoms, he used to say to himself: "These moments, short as they are, when I feel such extreme consciousness of myself, and consequently more of life than at other times, are due only to the disease--to the sudden rupture of normal conditions. Therefore they are not really a higher kind of life, but a lower." This reasoning, however, seemed to end in a paradox, and lead to the further consideration:--"What matter though it be only disease, an abnormal tension of the brain, if when I recall and analyze the moment, it seems to have been one of harmony and beauty in the highest degree--an instant of deepest sensation, overflowing with unbounded joy and rapture, ecstatic devotion, and completest life?" Vague though this sounds, it was perfectly comprehensible to Muishkin, though he knew that it was but a feeble expression of his sensations.

Jiri

06-05-2007, 12:45 PM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Who will rescue me from this body of death? Paul writes this in Romans 7:24. Clearly, Paul knew what happened to corpses and he wanted out of there. The verse is very troubling for Christian apologists. The Bishop of Durham, NT Wright, wants to believe that it was Gnostiscs who wanted to be rescued from their bodies and not early Christians like Paul. Accoridngly, Wright can write a 700-plus page book on early Christian beliefs on tbe resurrection, and never once quote that verse. Even more amazingly, NT Wright wrote a commentary on Romans chapters 1-8, and when he comes to deal with this verse, he quotes it in his commentary (page 132) as Paul saying 'Who is going to rescue me?' Can anybody think of one reason why a believer in corpses-rising-from-graves like Wright, would edit out 'this body of death', frm his quote of 'Who will rescue me from this body of death?'

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06-05-2007, 01:00 PM	#2
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Most Christians, like most people, are in the main materialists. Thus they cannot dissociate their notion of self from their own bodies. Paul had a thoroughly spiritualized outlook, but he was apparently often at pains to raise the consciousness of his flocks (cf 1Cor. 15)

06-05-2007, 01:49 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Are these the books of which you speak? The Resurrection of the Son of God (Christian Origins and the Question of God) (or via: amazon.co.uk) Paul for Everyone: Romans: Chapters 1-8 (for Everyone) (or via: amazon.co.uk) I'm not sure how to interpret that verse in context: 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Paul seems to be talking about his sinful bodily urges. How does this relate to the resurrection, when he would get some sort of transformed body? Is there sex in heaven? Pizza? Beer? But then Paul is never very clear. If he were, we could lay off a lot of theologians and exegetes.

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