Therese

Quote:
Therese: Another question. If you were in an army, at war, and some guy came up to you and said 'god made me the boss and told me to make sure all the babies were killed', what would you say to him? And how, if at all, is this different from believing Moses had this authority?

Ok, so if he replied to you and said, 'Sure i did all those things! God talks through me now. Do as I say! Kill those babies!', ?

lee_merrill

Hi Therese,

But the word was "estranged," as in "an estranged wife," this is a quite different word, another translation reads "from birth the wicked go astray" here.

I have actually answered this same question several times, God does involve people in carrying out his decisions, and if it was indeed clearly and verifiably God speaking, I would ask for grace for a right motive, that was not cruel or vindictive, and if that was forthcoming, I would ask to know what, specifically, to do, and then, knowing God enough to know he has a good purpose in every instance, I would then do it.

Genesis 22:3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about.

Regards,
Lee

Avatar

No, and no. Not supernaturally. Theoretically it might be possible with poisons...but anyone, not just "witches" could do that.

Really? Do you really want to start up another witch hunt? And here I though we had progressed beyond superstition...

lee_merrill

Hi Avatar,

Glad to hear it! I have had experiences that would indicate otherwise, and have heard claims like this, and various examples.

"In every life there is one particular event that is decisive for the entire person--for his fate, his convictions, his passions. Two years in that camp shook Yuri up once and for all. It is impossible to catch with words or to circumvent with syllogisms what that camp was. That was a camp to die in--and whoever did not die was compelled to reach certain conclusions." (A. Sozhenitsyn)

Not that I've been to these depths! But it was like that...

Well no, I'm not hunting witches, I do raise such questions with the witches I meet, though.

People do seem to be more willing to consider the supernatural real now, yet they rush right in, without considering the purposes or powers of any such beings. Just channel them! But they won't let the salesman into their home for a demonstration of Varoom vacuum cleaners. More caution is needed...

By which I meant that we may hope that those who set out on such paths may turn back, and walk a different way. They do have real abilities, I would say, and should give them up...

"No, if he was going to survive, he was obliged to draw certain conclusions."

Regards,
Lee

Therese

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that once you knew it was verifiably god's message, you would then question god's motives in the matter before acting?

lee_merrill

Hi Therese,

I should have stated this differently, I would consider a motive that was apart from any desire for harming another, a motive even here, for other's good (it would have to be supernatural), to be part of verifying that this was God speaking.

Regards,
Lee

Therese

But you would need to know the motive before acting?

Bob K

Lee M:

How would you (1) verify/prove the existence of gods and then (2) verify/prove the speeches of the gods?

Proof = (A) physical evidence comprised of people/objects/events who/which are comprised of matter/energy, in contrast to being the content of ideas, and who/which are observable by the perceptual senses of sight/hearing/touch/smell/taste directly or indirectly by the observable and verifiable/falsifable/verified effects they cause to observable people/objects/events; (B) eyewitness reports inre physical evidence from credible eyewitnesses, individuals not known, or have motives, to lie/deceive; eyewitness reports are to be corroborated by credible corroborators; (C) logical arguments in which the premises are verifiable/falsifiable/verified by physical evidence and if the premises are verified and relevant to the conclusions, then the conclusions are valid (by being relevant to the premises) and true (by being supported/inferred by the verified premises).

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Sorry, I meant I would need to have a motive, to be given an attitude that had no vengefulness or ill harm meant in it, which would certainly require the supernatural.

We have instructions!

Deuteronomy 18:21 - 19:1 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

So any predictions that are part of a messages have to be 100% true.

Jeremiah 23:28-29 Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the Lord. "Is not my word like fire," declares the Lord, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

So the quality of the message will be similar to messages in Scripture, not the style, though, but the (this is difficult to describe) the effect it has as we hear it, as C.S. Lewis said of various sayings attributed to Jesus, "It's a good saying, but not his," that aspect must line up, it will be like fire, like a hammer.

Here is a rather extended passage on just this very area:

1 John 4:1-6 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

You may pick out the parts to apply here! And one more:

Matthew 7:15-20 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

And this can be applied to voices people hear, too, what deeds tend to be associated with these voices, do these beings, or prophets, show good fruit?

And finally, people are encouraged to ask for confirmation, in various instances, supernatural confirmation, if need be:

Exodus 4:1-5 Moses answered, "What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The Lord did not appear to you'?" Then the Lord said to him, "What is that in your hand?" "A staff," he replied. The Lord said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the Lord said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. "This," said the Lord, "is so that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers-- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob-- has appeared to you."

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard

To prove that there is a god, you take your instructions from a book that claims god made the sun stand still.

How can you put any trust in a book whose "inspired" writers thought that the sun moves around the earth?