Dave31

That's right ...

Over 70 Rebuttals to Bart Ehrman's Anti-Mythicist Book 'Did Jesus Exist?'

Ratel

As a matter of fact I still lean toward the existence of a Jesus figure behind the legend, so to speak, but I find many of Ehrman's arguments against the Jesus mythers to be untenable and he strikes me as rather insulting in his manner of characterizing them also.

Toto has kindly provided the citations of the Hellenistic novels that Ehrman says don't have a hero crucified in them that prove they do.

After listening to the broadcast I re-read Plutarch's Isis and Osiris, and while the main narrative that Plutarch relates doesn't have Osiris bodily being raised from the dead, he admits that this belief about Osiris was very popular in his day and goes out of his way to refute it:

Unless the translation I read was wildly off I don't see how the above statement can be taken to mean anything other than that Osiris is a god who dies and comes back to life in the popular religious imagination of that time. I also don't see how someone of Ehrman's obvious brilliance could miss something like this. It reminds me of a debate I heard between Carrier and Licona where Licona was fighting tooth and nail over Zalmoxis being a resurrected god on the basis of Herodotus' skeptical reporting of the Getaeans(?) beliefs in him.

I ought to mention Pelops here as well, since the Olympics finished a while ago. Also murdered, dismembered, brought back to life, worshipped as a god at the Olympic opening ceremonies.

Having said that, I CAN'T prove that the Jesus story was influenced by any of the stories of gods I mentioned, but the material IS there as far as I can determine anyway. Again, I'm no scholar, and I rely on other people's translations of this stuff, but it looks that way to me.

IMHo the biggest barriers to me accepting Jesus mythicism is the Galatians mention of James and Cephas, and the strength (or not) of the theory that Jesus was a failed revolutionary/apocalyptic prophet- the failed Messiah no one would make up. But this "no pagan parallels" business is just apologetics.

aa5874

Your barriers are FAITH based.

Your claim that Jesus of the NT was a failed revolutionary/apocalptic preacher is NOT a fact--it is a Faith based opinion.

There is NO such story in the NT at all.

It is like telling people that Superman was Robin Hood.

Who told you Jesus was an apocalyptic revolutionary???

Jesus of the NT was the Son of God, God the Creator who MADE everything, who WALKED on the sea, Transfigured, Resurrected as PREDICTED and Ascended TO HEAVEN.

What failed Apocalyptic Revolutionary are you talking about???

In the Synoptics, Jesus did NOT even want any outsider to know that he was Christ.

Ratel

Well, maybe using a very broad meaning of the word "faith". But you're right, it is not a FACT!

No one, it just struck me as a plausible conjecture. I think some German guy in the 19th century came up with it. At least that's where most of these theories seem to come from.


Well, yes.

Uhm, let's forget I mentioned anything about an apocalyptic revolutionary then, yes?

aa5874

It is a FACT that Jesus was PUBLICLY documented and described as the Son of a Ghost. See the Recovered DATED Codices and NT Texts from antiquity.

You really have NO barriers. A story about the Son of a Ghost is Myth Fable like those of the Greeks and Romans.

It is a FACT that the Romans and Greek worshiped Myth Gods like Jesus and Zeus.

Yeah!! Conjecture!!!! The QUEST for Jesus is STILL in progress so the German guy don't know what he is talking about.

For HUNDREDS of years there has been a "Manhunt" for evidence for Jesus and NOTHING was found but Forgeries--essentially the Jesus story appears to a pack of Lies.

The author of gLuke gave the impression that he was almost certain Jesus was an actual Son of a Ghost based on witnesses--See Luke 1.

I can only tell you what is written about Superman and it is the same with Jesus.

Jesus and Superman can FLY--ONLY Jesus can fly farther. Superman never FLY to heaven.

No, No, No!!! I cannot just forget what you wrote. This is a serious matter. You claimed Jesus was an Apocalyptic Revolutionary so you must have a source for your claim.

You don't have a source???

This is Precisely how "Chinese Whispers" begin.

Can you imagine what would have happened if I did NOT challenge you??? People may not have realised that you really have NO evidence, No source for your claims.

There is an ON-GOING Quest for an historical Jesus so this MUST mean NO historical Jesus has been found.

Ratel

Hah- listening to the Bible Geek right now and he's addressing some of the points made on this thread. Good for you, Bible Geek!:notworthy:

Ratel

I'm not sure if I should respond to this, but...

.

My difficulty with this line of reasoning is that there are numerous humans known to exist, whose historicity isn't doubted by anyone, who are claimed to be gods or descended from gods. The reductio ad absurdum to your argumentation would be to deny the existence of all the Emperors of Japan until the reign of Hirohito. They were all accounted as gods or descendants of gods. The kings of Sparta, IIRC, were supposed to descend from Herakles, who was himself a son of Zeus. Yet I don't read a great deal of Leonidas mythicism here. Caesarion was worshipped as a god I think. But perhaps I'm not getting your point. If you mean Jesus exactly as depicted in the Gospels did not exist, I would agree with you there.

I notice you didn't address the bit in Galatians, where Paul is supposed to have had a row with James. Maybe "the lord's brother" means something metaphysical, I would grant that as a possibility. And of course the business with Cephas and James having hallucinations of the buried Jesus in 1 Corinthians. If one is buried one could plausibly have had a physical existence at one point. But again, this could be an interpolation, or could have taken place in some Platonic sphere above our own.

Is there a lot of new information out there? It seems like the same old info and theories being argued about over and over again.

I'm pretty sure the "Holy Spirit" wasn't thought to be in the same category as Casper.

Having written that, there are, again, historical figures imagined by their biographers to have been sired by a god. Doesn't mean they didn't exist.


No, I claimed that I was persuaded that the apocalyptic revolutionary theory seemed plausible. Let's take a look:


There were, after all, such people running around in Judaea at the time and some of the actions attributed to Jesus in the gospels would correlate to that sort of character- but, whatever.

What do you mean? I have the same sources you have. There's no Confession of Saint Paul where he writes "I made the whole thing up! This Jesus guy never existed! It's a myth!" Everybody's just arguing about how to sift through what materials we do have.


Nobody is foolish enough to take my off-handed remarks as authoritative on anything. If they were I would have started my own cult years ago and bilked them of their hard-earned cash like the representatives of the subject of this controversy have. :Cheeky:.

Is it not possible that we will simply never know the truth?

outhouse

this is where you fail toto


you are claiming bias, where there is none.

aa5874

Your attempt to use the data for other figures of history for Jesus is WHOLLY unacceptable and unreasonable. It does NOT matter who existed or not I am arguing that Jesus as described had NO real existence.

I am NOT debating the existence or non-existence of the Emperors of Japan. Such an investigation needs a separate and independent inquiry and the results CANNOT be transferred to Jesus.

It is absurd to suggest that if the Emperors of Japan did exist that Jesus of the NT existed merely because the Emperors did.

You seem to be new here. You also appear to have a very limited knowledge of the NT and Apologetic sources.

The Pauline writer is a LIAR or the Pauline writings are Sources of Fiction.

NO Apostle called James is listed in the Gospels or Acts as the human brother of Jesus Christ and NO Apologetic source claimed any Apostle called James was the human brother of Jesus.

1. The FATHER of Jesus was a Ghost of God and his mother was Mary. See gMatthew and gLuke.

2. The Father of the Apostle James was Alphaeus and his mother was the Sister of Mary. See De Viris Illustribus and the Fragments of Papias.

Are you NOT aware of the ON-GOING QUEST--the ON-GOING "Manhunt" for an historical Jesus?? Who do you think are on the "Manhunt" for an historical Jesus for HUNDREDS of years???

It is the very same HJers that are looking ALL OVER the place for THEIR Jesus.

They can't find him--never will. An historical Jesus cannot ever be recovered from Discredited Sources and Myth Fables.

Casper was the Son of God and the Creator???
Are you willing to argue Casper was a figure of history because "historical figures imagined by their biographers to have been sired by a god"??

Please, create history and argue for an "historical CASPER" based on the existence of Japanese Emperors.

What??? You mean it is plausible that Jesus was an Apocalyptic Revolutionary but he was NOT??

If you have very little knowledge of the written evidence then you will be at risk of believing anything that SEEMS Plausible when it may not really be so.

It is NOT plausible that Jesus was an Apocalyptic revolutionary because there is NO recovered evidence from antiquity to support it.

Virtually all the recovered evidence suggest Jesus was the product of Mythology.

I really don't know what you have but the Pauline writer did OPENLY LIE and claim he saw the resurrected Jesus. The Pauline writer TESTIFIED that God raised Jesus from the dead and that he and OVER 500 people saw him.

And, in the same Galatians, Paul claimed he was NOT the Apostle of a human being and that he got his Gospel from NO man.

1. If Jesus was NOT human then Jesus could NOT have really died and could have NEVER resurrected.

2. If Jesus was Human then he did NOT resurrect.

Any way, The Pauline writings are a Pack of LIES.


But, did you NOT accept the position of the German guy??? The Guy don't know what he is talking about. No body wrote any character called Jesus the revolutionary Apocalyptic in the time of Tiberius. Perhaps the German guy made it all up.

Why did you accept the German guy theory???

The German guy is dead so you must tell those alive that an historical Jesus cannot ever be recovered from UNRELIABLE Sources filled with Fiction, Lies and Implausibilities.

Jesus of the NT was a product of Mythology.

Toto

No, I am referring to the well established fact that historical Jesus studies have invented their own "criteria" for deriving history from the theological writings of the New Testament, and that these criteria are not used in any other area of history. Christian apologists like to pretend that neutral historical methods can establish the historicity of Jesus, but this is not the case. Christian apologists like to claim that the methods of mythcists could be used to prove that no historical persons existed, but this is clearly false.