Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 04-13-2011, 08:02 AM

Like I said I am really involved in some research for a new book. Nevertheless the key reference in my mind is the location of the great προσευχή of Alexandria mentioned in the writings of Philo and the dyplastoon 'synagogue' or rival temple in the early rabbinic texts (tSuk 4:6; ySuk 5, 55a-b; and bSuk 51b). Was this just a 'synagogue'? I don't think so. Was this building transferred to the earliest Christians in Alexandria? There are difficulties with this suggestion but yes I think so. Here is the very, very early description of the building in rabbinic sources:

Quote:

R. Judah [b Ilia] said, "Whoever has not seen the double stoa (colonnade) of Alexandria has never in his life seen the glory of Israel. It is a kind of large basilica, a stoa within a stoa, holding at times twice the number of those who left Egypt [during the Exodus]. And seventy one cathedrae of gold were there for the seventy one elders each of them worth 25 talents [of gold], and a wooden platform was in the middle. And a hazzan of the synagogue [lit. assembly] stood on it with a kerchiefs in his hand. When one took hold [of the Torah scroll] to read, he would wave the kerchiefs and they [those congregated] would answer 'Amen' for each benediction; and he would again [wave the kerchiefs] and they would [again] respond 'Amen.' And they not sit randomly but goldsmiths would sit by themselves, silversmiths by themselves, weavers by themselves, Tarsian weavers by themselves and blacksmiths by themselves. And why to such an extent [i.e. why the differentiated seating]? So that if a visitor comes he can [immediately] make contact with his trade and thus he will be able to make a living [T Sukkah 4.6]

I think it is all a matter of perspective but if you focus on this description and the survival of references to an 'altar of Alexandria' and a 'priesthood of Alexandria' it becomes difficult to accept the account in the reworked source that is Josephus. The weakenesses in Petrie's assessment are also worth addressing but, like I said, give me some time. Here's a 'map' of the supposed location of the temple of Leontopolis

spin · 04-13-2011, 11:00 AM

Stephan, none of this is getting to a temple in Egypt. Since when was there an office of hazzan in the temple? Do the wealthy Alexandrian Jews have to make a crappy meeting hall for it to be a meeting hall and not a temple?

Rabbi Judah ben Ila'i was a 2nd generation of the 2nd c. rabbi. The temple of Onias was reputedly destroyed several decades before his period.

stephan huller · 04-13-2011, 01:36 PM

As I said my hands are sort of tied with research right now. I am finding this discussion quite enjoyable and I respect your knowledge. Nevertheless we are basically dealing with a disconnect between the testimony of Josephus (I will bring that forward when I get a chance) and the rabbinic tradition AND Philo because I think the building mentioned in tSukkah is the house of prayer of Philo. The way many schoalrs reconcile the material is that the dyplastoon synagogue is the temple of Onias. Some call it a separate building 'the Great Synagogue' of Alexandria. But why doesn't Philo reference the Leontopolis temple?

Also Josephus claims that the Leontopolis temple survived the Jewish revolt. It was locked but not destroyed. The Talmud has lengthy discussions of what to do with the priests who worked at the altar of Alexandria. How could they have made such a mix up? How were there priests in Alexandria? If the mix up was for Leontopolis why does the Talmud care about the fate of priests from a long forgotten temple?

stephan huller · 04-13-2011, 01:49 PM

We read that after the Jerusalem priests put Onias in women's clothes and tried to kill Onias "he fled to Alexandria in Egypt, where he built an altar to offer burnt offerings to idols" [Tosefta Menahot 13.II.1] The story in Josephus is a conflation and introduction of Isa 19:18 into its narrative

stephan huller · 04-13-2011, 02:04 PM

I don't see why the testimony here is any less authoritative than the Christianized traditions associated with Josephus. The dates are roughly similar and I am absolutely certain Josephus himself did not write about the Leontopolis temple. It was one of the synergoi from a period ranging from mid 2nd century to the time of Eusebius.

avi · 04-14-2011, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am absolutely certain Josephus himself did not write about the Leontopolis temple.

Absolute certainty is a wonderful trait to possess.

Perhaps, almost as useful, is an explanation of why one should be absolutely certain about anything written by "Josephus", in view of the relatively unimpressive chain of evidence, from original (Aramaic?) manuscript, to currently extant text.

I am relatively unconvinced that anything written in tracts supposedly authored by Josephus, were actually written by him.

I think one is on safer ground, comparing manuscript evidence of Jewish practice by authors relatively untainted by Christian influence, if that is possible.

I am of the opinion, that we ought to purge this word, "absolute", from our thinking process, at least, as regards analysis of the ancient documents.

avi

stephan huller · 04-14-2011, 11:03 AM

Well as I said I am in the middle of work and researching for a book and typing my answers on my Blackberry while shopping so my answers have to be brief. 'Absolutely certain' might be a bit strong. Perhaps 'strongly suspect,' 'assume,' 'think is reasonable' might have been better

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04-13-2011, 11:00 AM	#42
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Stephan, none of this is getting to a temple in Egypt. Since when was there an office of hazzan in the temple? Do the wealthy Alexandrian Jews have to make a crappy meeting hall for it to be a meeting hall and not a temple? Rabbi Judah ben Ila'i was a 2nd generation of the 2nd c. rabbi. The temple of Onias was reputedly destroyed several decades before his period.

04-13-2011, 01:36 PM	#43
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	As I said my hands are sort of tied with research right now. I am finding this discussion quite enjoyable and I respect your knowledge. Nevertheless we are basically dealing with a disconnect between the testimony of Josephus (I will bring that forward when I get a chance) and the rabbinic tradition AND Philo because I think the building mentioned in tSukkah is the house of prayer of Philo. The way many schoalrs reconcile the material is that the dyplastoon synagogue is the temple of Onias. Some call it a separate building 'the Great Synagogue' of Alexandria. But why doesn't Philo reference the Leontopolis temple? Also Josephus claims that the Leontopolis temple survived the Jewish revolt. It was locked but not destroyed. The Talmud has lengthy discussions of what to do with the priests who worked at the altar of Alexandria. How could they have made such a mix up? How were there priests in Alexandria? If the mix up was for Leontopolis why does the Talmud care about the fate of priests from a long forgotten temple?

04-13-2011, 01:49 PM	#44
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	We read that after the Jerusalem priests put Onias in women's clothes and tried to kill Onias "he fled to Alexandria in Egypt, where he built an altar to offer burnt offerings to idols" [Tosefta Menahot 13.II.1] The story in Josephus is a conflation and introduction of Isa 19:18 into its narrative

04-13-2011, 02:04 PM	#45
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't see why the testimony here is any less authoritative than the Christianized traditions associated with Josephus. The dates are roughly similar and I am absolutely certain Josephus himself did not write about the Leontopolis temple. It was one of the synergoi from a period ranging from mid 2nd century to the time of Eusebius.

04-14-2011, 11:03 AM	#47
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Well as I said I am in the middle of work and researching for a book and typing my answers on my Blackberry while shopping so my answers have to be brief. 'Absolutely certain' might be a bit strong. Perhaps 'strongly suspect,' 'assume,' 'think is reasonable' might have been better

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