Clivedurdle

Is the concept of the second coming actually an acknowledgement that Jesus had not dwelt amongst us that was warped by the historicists from an earlier natural yearning that the Lord who had sacrificed himself in heaven for their sins ought to hurry up and set up the new heaven and earth that all the xians wanted?

Ie it was originally a first coming?

GakuseiDon

When you say "sacrificed himself in heaven", where exactly do you mean? Above the orbit of the moon, or below?

Clivedurdle

Now now, isn't it clear that the MJ position has a sacrifice in is it the third heaven? Have you missed all the threads about in the flesh? I doubt it!

I'm attempting a thought experiment. Does the second coming become a first coming if you accept the MJ position as a starting point? Are there any comments in the NT that would support this, or be neutral about it or contradict it?

GakuseiDon

Nope, it can't be in the third heaven. No demons there. You'd have to have the angels crucifying Christ.

Clivedurdle

Funny, I thought it was God who sacrificed his son... (John 3 16)

All I am attempting is a bit of occam, a bit of weeding, to see if we assume an Mj, does the second coming become a first coming?

These diversionary tactics about which heaven - as its all made up there probably isn't a clear definition - are great fun, but why not have a sect of messianic judaism make up something about sins being washed away in heaven and the messiah coming to build the new Jerusalem after the Romans had made such a mess - twice - around 70 and 130?

GakuseiDon

Actually, I couldn't agree more! I'm trying to get a clear definition from Ted Hoffman at the moment in another thread.

Anyway, I apologise for the diversion. You've raised an interesting question actually, but I'm not an MJer, so I'll stay out of this. (I'll just point out that where you place Christ's crucifixion - sub-lunar realm or supra-lunar realm - may prove relevent to the question at some stage).

Clivedurdle

Come on everyone, someone must have a view on this!

Assume an MJ.

Does all the stuff about come Lord Jesus, I come quickly etc make sense if they were talking about a first coming - as some Jews still do?

Clivedurdle

I'd like you on board! This is a thought experiment, does it stack up?

Clivedurdle

The back of my Dake's Annotated Reference Bible has some charts and maps including two entitled "The books of Daniel and Revelation and the five departments in the underworld of departed spirits illustrated."

Someone must have done a similar chart of the various heavens - nerds had to do something before computer programming, the internet and trains were invented!

GakuseiDon

Well, since you ask: Doherty has Christ crucified in the air, so there are then two answers:

1. When Paul and the other Christians are transformed and go to meet Christ in the air, it will be a Second Coming.

2. When Christ reaches the earth, it will be a First Coming.