Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ben C Smith · 12-11-2008, 09:18 AM

Has anyone here seen the Star of Bethlehem DVD? Or does anybody know what its basic premise is?

Thanks.

Ben.

gstafleu · 12-11-2008, 10:47 AM

"From Producer Stephen McEveety (The Passion of the Christ)..." That is Mel Gibson's Passion Porn movie, so I doubt if there will be much there.

"The Bible recounts unusual or even impossible astronomical events at Christ's birth." So what does it recount, really? Matt 2:1 has "For we [the Magi] have seen His star in the East". Then in 7-9 the Magi follow this star and find Jesus. That seems to be about it? And it is a bit strange star, one the Magi could see and follow it while Herod had to appoint a committee of wise man in order to find it (if he found it, which isn't clear).

All in all it would indeed be interesting to know what the DVD's basic premise is. If there is a basic premise. Which I doubt.

Gerard Stafleu

Toto · 12-11-2008, 11:03 AM

Available on Amazon (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Read the reviews there for mostly favorable opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda Happer

It was not a conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter (as previously thought), but of Jupiter (King planet), Venus (woman) and the star Regulus (King star). The conjunction took place in the sign Virgo (Virgin, & the seed of the woman), and lasted just long enough to direct the 3 Kings to Bethlehem. By the time they found where Jesus was living, He was a toddler. King Herod found out where the three Kings went, and sent soldiers to kill every child under the age of two, but Jesus and his parents had already fled. I also learned that God created the twelve signs of the Zodiac (the Ancient signs---not the new, pagen ones), and that the constellation Virgo was the first constellation, and Leo (the sign of the King) was the last.

The entire story of creation, birth of Christ, death of Christ, struggle with Satan, and Christ coming back as King is written in the stars. This is the best kept secret in the world today.

It is NOT ASTROLOGY!! This is using astronomy to read signs God has placed in the sky to announce what God is doing on earth. The ancients knew this, they knew astromony---everyone believed in God or Gods back then. Since that time paganism has corrupted the 12 original constellations and the fruit of that corruption is ASTROLOGY (fortune telling) which is forbidden by God.

news story

Quote:

Larson is emphatic in saying that, although his quest was initially faith-driven, it became much more. "If I'm going to make a star hypothesis," he said, "I want to know, what did it do? Was it an angel? Was it a comet? Was it a myth?"

...

Larson first had to approximate the death of King Herod, which, based on the writings of ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, most scholars presume to be about 4 B.C. But Larson said he found a recent discovery that states a printing error occurred in the 14th Century. The error had incorrectly printed Josephus' presumption of Herod's death. This caused scholars to look at the wrong date in researching the Star of Bethlehem. "All the oldest manuscripts, before 1544, are consistent with Herod having died in 1 B.C.," Larson said. "That opens up the possibility for us to look in the years 2 and 3 B.C. There, the sky explodes!"

...

Something did happen, however, that was much more profound -- a triple conjunction of Jupiter, Venus and the star Regulus on April 3, 2 B.C., and a new moon. "What you had was two stars stacked on top of each other," Larson explained. "To an observer, it appeared to be the brightest star anyone had ever seen." Larson described it as an astronomical event that hasn't happened again in the 20th Century.

. . .

The article includes more detail on the hypothesis and criticism from astronomers and historians.

Ben C Smith · 12-11-2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

news story

Quote:

Larson first had to approximate the death of King Herod, which, based on the writings of ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, most scholars presume to be about 4 B.C. But Larson said he found a recent discovery that states a printing error occurred in the 14th Century. The error had incorrectly printed Josephus' presumption of Herod's death. This caused scholars to look at the wrong date in researching the Star of Bethlehem. "All the oldest manuscripts, before 1544, are consistent with Herod having died in 1 B.C.," Larson said.

Thanks, Toto.

Does anybody know what this is about manuscripts of Josephus before 1544 (I presume he means the editio princeps by Arlenius) implying a date of 1 BCE for the death of Herod?

Ben.

Toto · 12-11-2008, 03:32 PM

See this thread: Quirinus and the registration of 3 BCE (I thought this all sounded familiar.)

Doug Shaver · 12-12-2008, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Or does anybody know what its basic premise is?

No, and I'm not going to buy a DVD just to find out.

Apologists have been trying to prove, since a very long time before DVDs were invented, that Matthew's story about the star of Bethlehem might have had a factual basis. Their efforts have consistently failed.

If there was any way for serious science to salvage Christianity's credibility, I'm sue it would have happened before now.

credoconsolans · 12-14-2008, 10:25 AM

Typical religious wonkiness and missing of the important part. They accept without question a ghost impregnating a woman without sex, but will try really hard with astronomy and science to prove that a star led 3 kings to a stable in a small village in the Middle East.

They accept the first as a miracle, but want proof on the 2nd. I suggest they accept the whole thing as a miracle and let it lie.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-14-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by credoconsolans

Typical religious wonkiness and missing of the important part. They accept without question a ghost impregnating a woman without sex, but will try really hard with astronomy and science to prove that a star led 3 kings to a stable in a small village in the Middle East.

Speaking of wonkiness, neither Matthew nor Luke speak of a "ghost" impregnating Mary. Nor, as Robert Miller has shown in his Born Divine (or via: amazon.co.uk), do these evangelists rule out the idea that her conception was through human agency. Nor does Mathew enumerate the number of Kings, let alone that however many there were, they were led to a stable.

You seem to be working not from actual or sound knowledge of the biblical texts you make claims about, but from visions of typical Xmas creches.

Jeffrey

credoconsolans · 12-14-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by credoconsolans

Typical religious wonkiness and missing of the important part. They accept without question a ghost impregnating a woman without sex, but will try really hard with astronomy and science to prove that a star led 3 kings to a stable in a small village in the Middle East.

Speaking of wonkiness, neither Matthew nor Luke speak of a "ghost" impregnating Mary. Nor, as Robert Miller has shown in his Born Divine, do these evangelists rule out the idea that her conception was through human agency. Nor does Mathew enumerate the number of Kings, let alone that however many there were, they were led to a stable.

You seem to be working not from actual or sound knowledge of the biblical texts you make claims about, but from visions of typical Xmas creches.
Jeffrey

Guess you and Robert Miller haven't read your bibles lately.

Mat 1:18 "...and Mary was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit..."

to be with child: pregnant

spirit

1. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
2. Incorporeal consciousness.

The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.

Spirit The Holy Spirit.
A supernatural being, as:

1. An angel or a demon.
2. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.
3. A fairy or sprite.

ghost

1 The spirit of a dead person, especially one believed to appear in bodily likeness to living persons or to haunt former habitats.
2 The center of spiritual life; the soul.
3 A demon or spirit.
4 A returning or haunting memory or image.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-14-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by credoconsolans

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Speaking of wonkiness, neither Matthew nor Luke speak of a "ghost" impregnating Mary. Nor, as Robert Miller has shown in his Born Divine (or via: amazon.co.uk), do these evangelists rule out the idea that her conception was through human agency. Nor does Mathew enumerate the number of Kings, let alone that however many there were, they were led to a stable.

You seem to be working not from actual or sound knowledge of the biblical texts you make claims about, but from visions of typical Xmas creches.
Jeffrey

Guess you and Robert Miller haven't read your bibles lately.

And I'm guessing that since you do your analysis of Greek texts on the basis of English translations of them, you went to the Yuri Kuchinsky school of Biblical exegesis, that you don't read Greek (you should be consulting BDAG or LSJ, not an English dictionary for the meanings of εὑρΪθη ἐν γαστρὶ and πνεύματος ἁγίου), that you haven't read Miller and that you are wholly unaware of and uninformed about the significance of the use of ἐκ Greek expressions speaking of generation.

Now please tell me where it is in GMatthew that Mathew actually enumerates the number of Kings he speaks of in Mt. 2, let alone that however many he says there were, they are depicted as being led by a star to a stable.

Jeffrey

12-11-2008, 09:18 AM	#1
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Question about the Star of Bethlehem (DVD). Has anyone here seen the Star of Bethlehem DVD? Or does anybody know what its basic premise is? Thanks. Ben.

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12-11-2008, 10:47 AM	#2
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	"From Producer Stephen McEveety (The Passion of the Christ)..." That is Mel Gibson's Passion Porn movie, so I doubt if there will be much there. "The Bible recounts unusual or even impossible astronomical events at Christ's birth." So what does it recount, really? Matt 2:1 has "For we [the Magi] have seen His star in the East". Then in 7-9 the Magi follow this star and find Jesus. That seems to be about it? And it is a bit strange star, one the Magi could see and follow it while Herod had to appoint a committee of wise man in order to find it (if he found it, which isn't clear). All in all it would indeed be interesting to know what the DVD's basic premise is. If there is a basic premise. Which I doubt. Gerard Stafleu

12-11-2008, 03:32 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	See this thread: Quirinus and the registration of 3 BCE (I thought this all sounded familiar.)

12-14-2008, 10:25 AM	#7
credoconsolans Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: land of the home, free of the brave Posts: 9,729	Typical religious wonkiness and missing of the important part. They accept without question a ghost impregnating a woman without sex, but will try really hard with astronomy and science to prove that a star led 3 kings to a stable in a small village in the Middle East. They accept the first as a miracle, but want proof on the 2nd. I suggest they accept the whole thing as a miracle and let it lie.

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