Jack the Bodiless

Hmmm. The thread title is "Why Believe the Bible's History?"

So far, this question remains unanswered.

We've seen some pretty desperate fumbling with numbers of Holocaust victims, and another sevenfold magnification of Jeremiah's "70 years" (already stretched to 490 by Daniel, then stretched again by Larsguy47), but still no reason at all to believe any of this.

RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
There is no justification for your arbitrary use of the terms atypical "Judea" and atypical "Jerusalem." Did you make them up?

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
I have lived with the reality of the Holocaust all my life. Watch your manners, please.

From Larsguy47:
It’s so involved that it has nothing to do with your verbal games about the "disgusting thing in a holy place." By the way, you forgot to mention that homosexuals, Communists and Gypsies were also victims of the Holocaust and others.

You are playing fast and loose with portions of history that serious people do not trife with.

From Larsguy47:
From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
Somehow I doubt it. By the way, the correct figure for Jews under German occupation was 72%, which is another refutation of your nonsense.

http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/jewvicts.html

From Larsguy47:
You are playing with words and history, which, in this context, is not cool.

From Larsguy47:
Nonsense. One more time: you are arbitrarily selecting one group to justify your figures, which are wrong anyway. Are you trying to say that the Jews of the USA, North and South American, England and Asia were not part of “Judea”?

From Larsguy47:
I don’t have to compete with you except about historical truth.

And as a Jew who lost 1/3 of his family, I resent your tone. You have a shocking dirth of historical knowledge about Jews, and yet you stick your nose into the Holocaust.

From Larsguy47:
You have no proof that the Book of Lamentations is focused on the Holocaust.

From Larsguy47:
Sigh. Let’s see what you’ve got.

Lamentations 5:10:
From Larsguy47:
Much better than you do. Trust me on that.

From Larsguy47:
This is outrageous. You are using a scene in a movie (actually, it was not a movie but a TV miniseries) as proof?

In addition, the Bible says, “hand.” You have “hands.”

Where are the references to the mass executions by rifles, gas, starvation, exposure, torture? How come the Bible managed to miss that one?

You are trivializing the Holocaust.

From Larsguy47:
Are you sure that you want to go there?

From Larsguy47:
In other words, what you are saying is that Jews were killed for the sins of Jews. Why does my gut start to tighten at this point?

From Larsguy47:
I can hardly wait.

From Larsguy47:
From Larsguy47:
Most people in the concentration camps were murdered. And a tattoo is not a brand. If you’ve ever seen a camp tattoo, as I have, many times, you would know the difference.

From Larsguy47:
[QUOTE]This was all because of false worship, when the Jewish women as prostitutes seduced men and got them to eventually sacrifice their children in the fire, whom they burned alive in kilns. It was so bad and so many children were being burned alive that Jerusalem was called the "city of bloodshed." (Na. 3:1)[quote]How many thousands of years ago? If true then, and you have no proof even of that.

And, one more time, you are blaming Jews for the Holocaust.

From Larsguy47:
What you are doing is blaming the deaths of Jews at the hands of the nazis on the Jews. Wonderful. Great politics.

Lamentations 4:6:
So now we’re back to Sodom and Gomorrah.

From Larsguy47:
It is a disgraceful thing to say. You have just exonerated the nazis and made them instruments of God’s will. You would have been great as a defense attorney at Nuremberg.

From Larsguy47:
I can hardly wait.

From Larsguy47:
So, when the bible is wrong, it’s right. By the way, when did one hour become seven years?

Matthew 24:21:
From Larsguy47:
[QUOTE]Two thirds were to perish, and one third was to survive. But that ratio was reached by 1945, 2 years before the end of the 7 years, so the "days were cut short" to save those Jews. Had Hitler been more successful and continued longer, it was his intent to kill every Jew and half Jew in the entire world. He felt they were a genetic threat to the Aryan race.

From Larsguy47:
Oh, I see all right. But i don’t see what you think I should see. What I see is delusion.

RED DAVE

Larsguy47

The Jews and JWs are the Biblical focus here. Lots of Americans died in the war as well, right? What about them? Try and stay focussed. The "disgusting causing desolation" is what destroys the Jews at this time, so it is equivalent to Nazism/white supremacy doctrine.

I apologize. Certainly, it is very touchy/sensitive subject, if it will upset you too much I won't do further detail. But I will note that some Jews in trying to explain the Holocaust did express they understood it was for punishment for what their forefathers had done.

Well, the most tossed about numbers is 6 million Jews died out of 9. So as long as at least one comparison works, the prophesy can't be said not to have been fulfilled.


Point is, I didn't invent those figures.

Here's a specific calculation from The History Place

They give the numbers from each country. Their specific numbers were 5,962,129 killed out of 9,508,340 with 3,546,211, which is 63%. If we were rounding off to the nearest large fraction (1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc), 63% is closer to 2/3rds (66.6%) than 1/2 (50%) or 3/4 (75%). That is, 63% is only 3% away from two-thirds, but 13% away from 1/2 and 12% away from 75%. As I said, many people just round up to 6 milllion and round down to 9 million, the ratio being two-thirds killed, 1/3 surviving. I didn't create the numbers.


Truth, is sometimes in the eye of the beholder, though, is it not? "Interpretation belongs to God."

I am sorry to hear that. It is definitely the worst "event in human history" and certainly prominently focussed on in the Bible as this coming "great tribulation". But for the survivors God said that he would restore them to their homeland and bless them and make them a great nation. What about that? Israel is a great nation in the world, is it not?

But still, there's a message here. If God does this to his own disobedient people, or even the children of his disobedient people, then what will he do to the rest of the world? He certainly will not let them off the hook.

I'm part Jewish as well. In "True Believer" a group is depicted discussing the Holocaust and one of the women expressed she believed it was due to some ancient issues relating to their parents and their heritage, etc.

7 Our forefathers are the ones that have sinned. They are no more. As for us, it is their errors that we have had to bear.


It's exegetical; I don't need proof. I just have to coordinate the numbers.

I'm presuming the miniseries based that depiction on actual testimony or facts rather than inventing it, especially in a documentary like this. You're saying the producers made up this form of torture to engrandize outside of the facts. They either did or they didn't. Did you look it up? I'm presuming it is accurate and based on actual events.

"Hand" can be a generic term, like "it was carried by hand" or "hand delivered". As long as at least one hand was involved it's fulfilled.

Daniel uses the word "extermination":

Daniel 9:27 “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”

No, not at all. It is serious. But remember, immediately after this the Jews were to be restored to their homeland and blessed and considered God's people again, no longer abandoned. Plus all those that died will come back in the resurrection on Judgment Day.


This, like everything else prophesied had to be fulfilled as well.


Lost in translation?

Ezk 38:16 "And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land, for the purpose that the nations may know me when I sanctify myself in you before their eyes, O Gog.”’

Magog was the son of Noah's eldest on, Japheph, the father of the Caucasian nations. Gog is the white supremacist faction that brings on this great tribulation to God's chosen people, the Jews "in the final part of the days"; our time. The prophesied extermination was two thirds at the time of this great tribulation. It must occur after 62 weeks, within 7 years, before the final jubilee of 49 years. The 70 weeks end in 1996, 62 weeks cut off at 1940, the final jubilee begins in 1947.

It's what the Bible and God decreed. But it was because the Jews left God's Covenant and this was what was promised would happen to them. But don't focus on this so much since at Armageddon God will be killing a lot more people who don't take care to be obedient to his word. At the same time, he will grant a millennium of peace and good health to those that do. God fulfills his promises.


The Bible says after this they would be destroyed themselves, and they were.


Revelation calls 42 months a "half hour", 42 months is 3.6 years so an hour is 7 years.

I think we should give the "Holocaust" a rest for a while, if you don't mind.

Thanks.

Larsguy47

RED DAVE

The following quote, which I am using to start this entry, is actually at the bottom of Larsgy47's post 43. I have moved it and my reply to it to the top as a kind of introduction.

From Larsguy47:
I do mind. You broached the subject, not me.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
I wasn't aware that the Jehovah's Witnesses are mentioned in the Bible. Are they one of the Ten Lost Tribes?

From Larsguy47:
Your tone here is condescending, which is hardly surprising.

From Larsguy47:
You are merely making a verbal connection which fits your historical fantasy.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
A sincere apology implies a change in attitude. Let's see.

From Larsguy47:
Actually, you have given practically no detail. All you have really done is express the opinion that Jews are responsible for the Holocaust.

From Larsguy47:
There are also Jewish racists. There's no accounting for some people's insanity.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
This is not something we toss numbers about. We are dealing with human beings.

From Larsguy47:
What you are saying is that if can find one figure to fit your fantasy, the fanasy is real. Forget the actual numbers. So much for respect for the truth. In any event, as I've pointed out, and you never responded to, to abstract the Jews in the countries occupied by the Germans from the rest of the Jewish people and contrive a figure for that to justify a historical fantasy is playing fast and loose with history.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
Point is, you just ducked the question. What is your rationalization for abstracting the Jews in the countries under German occupation and treating them as a separate nation?

From Larsguy47:
I'm not going to chop numbers with you. I gave a source with 72%. In any event, even your figures don't come to 2/3, which means either you are playing with numbers or God is inaccurate. I prefer the former.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
The phrase you are quoting is: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Truth is in the eye of the beholder when it's governed by values. We are dealing with historical facts.

From Larsguy47:
Since he's not here, it's up to you and me.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
I think that belongs to World War II as whole, of which the Holocaust was a part.

From Larsguy47:
You have no justification for this connection but your own historical fantasy.

From Larsguy47:
As to how "great" Israel is, that's debatable. I'm not a Zionist. In any event, only about 40.2% of all Jews live in Israel. The US has a slightly larger percentage (40.5%).

From Larsguy47:
God does nothing. And the Jews are not god's people, except in certain historical fantasies, which some Jews and others entertain. You are still blaming the Jews for the Holocaust.

From Larsguy47:
Maybe we're cousins. My family comes from Hungary. Shalom.

From Larsguy47:
1) What is "True Believer"?

2) She is entitled to her fantasies, but that's what they are.

From Lamentations 5:
From Larsguy47:
True, but for the life of me I can't see even a fantasy connection to your quote from Lamentations.

From Lamentations:
They had their fantasies back then as well. If you believe them, that's your choice. In any event, you end up blaming the Jews for the Holocaust.


From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
(emphasis added)

Sorry, dude, but you need proof. Numerological fantasy doesn't cut it.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
Methodlogically, in this kind of discussion, that kind of a presumption is a mistake.

From Larsguy47:
As far as I know, it was not a documentary.

From Larsguy47:
You don't get to make up that kind of presumption. There are plenty of reliable sources, but it takes work to use them. You may be right, but you till have to do your homework.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
You are revealing here how silly your fantasizing is.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
Uhh, you will have to concretely connect this to the Holocaust. Otherwise, you are just playing with words.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
Let's see how serious.

From Larsguy47:
Only some Jews consider Israel their homeland. I, myself, pefer the United States. I think, though, that most of us would prefer that the Holocaust never have happened and that the price paid for Israel, according to that fantasy, was too high.

From Larsguy47:
I guess you're not serious, as one more time, you are trivializing the Holocaust. .

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
Again, you are using your historical fantasy to justify the Holocaust.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
A tattoo, Larsguy47, is not a brand. One more time, you have trivialized the Holocaust to suit your historical fantasy.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
One more time, you are using your historical fantasy to justify the Holocaust.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
No, it's your explanation for the Holocaust, which is to blame it on the Jews.

From Larsguy47:
One more time, your historical fantasy.

From Larsguy47:
One more time our historical fantasy.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
The nazis were defeated in war, not by god. One more time, fantasy.

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
Historical fantasizing, one more time. What does the numerology of an ancient book have to do with the Holocaust?

I hope I've made my point about the foolishness and danger of this kind of thinking.

RED DAVE