Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-20-2011, 01:43 PM

Early images

A fairly comprehensive blog post on early images of the crucifixion.

Quote:

Early depictions of the Passion of Christ tended to omit the crucifixion, and there are very few representations of it in the Early Christian and Early Byzantine period.

... In fact, there is rather little evidence for the use of a cross as a symbol by Christians before the time of Constantine.

hylidae · 08-20-2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

I used to do archaeology in war zones and cultural property, currently I'm writing a book about ancient women and war

She's got my attention.

PhilosopherJay · 08-20-2011, 03:28 PM

Hi Toto,

This is a nice clear presentation of the facts. Thanks.

When I show the students in my Humanities classes the different images of Jesus from the first five centuries, they are amazed as if they suddenly realized that there is no Santa Claus.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Early images

A fairly comprehensive blog post on early images of the crucifixion.

Quote:

Early depictions of the Passion of Christ tended to omit the crucifixion, and there are very few representations of it in the Early Christian and Early Byzantine period.

... In fact, there is rather little evidence for the use of a cross as a symbol by Christians before the time of Constantine.

Minimalist · 08-20-2011, 03:52 PM

Very nice find, Toto.

I wonder how they'll shoehorn the Shroud of Turin into this?

stephan huller · 08-20-2011, 07:38 PM

There are some omissions in this discussion (unless I overlooked them while skimming through the article). I think there is a pillar in Alexandria from an old church which dates to the early fourth century (The architecture of Alexandria and Egypt, c. 300 B.C. to A.D. 700, Volume 63 By Judith McKenzie p. 240). It dates to the period an old pagan building was rededicated for Christian use. But some of this isn't that surprise when you consider the Coptic tradition is adamant that Christians did not worship in physical buildings (i.e. there were no churches) until the early fourth century. How can you have physical remains if you don't have physical buildings?

Acts seems to lay out a clear rejection of physical buildings too. I have written a paper on the throne of St. Mark for the Journal of Coptic Studies where I basically follow a previous study which determined the existence of a witness to the throne in a testimony dated (loosely) to the early fourth century. If that line of thought is followed the throne actually dates to third century.

It is also worth noting that the Islamic tradition points to a Jewish Christian 'denial of the crucifixion.' I have never been able to figure out if this means that there was a crucifixion but Jesus escaped death (i.e. he traded places with Judas as in the Islamic pseudepigrapha) or that later Christians 'made up' the idea that Jesus was crucified.

There is something unusual with respect to the crucifixion. Take Irenaeus's testimony about a longer gospel of Mark in the possession of "those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, " [AH 3.11.7] A wholly different conception of the crucifixion (presumably).

squiz · 09-01-2011, 10:55 AM

Interesting blog. I apologise if it has already been linked to here, but I found another post of hers to be noteworthy:
http://phdiva.blogspot.com/2011/08/c...t-century.html

You often hear that crucifixion was only for slaves, but she shows quite convincingly that it was also a punishment for treason - even among the upper classes.

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08-20-2011, 03:52 PM	#4
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Very nice find, Toto. I wonder how they'll shoehorn the Shroud of Turin into this?

08-20-2011, 07:38 PM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	There are some omissions in this discussion (unless I overlooked them while skimming through the article). I think there is a pillar in Alexandria from an old church which dates to the early fourth century (The architecture of Alexandria and Egypt, c. 300 B.C. to A.D. 700, Volume 63 By Judith McKenzie p. 240). It dates to the period an old pagan building was rededicated for Christian use. But some of this isn't that surprise when you consider the Coptic tradition is adamant that Christians did not worship in physical buildings (i.e. there were no churches) until the early fourth century. How can you have physical remains if you don't have physical buildings? Acts seems to lay out a clear rejection of physical buildings too. I have written a paper on the throne of St. Mark for the Journal of Coptic Studies where I basically follow a previous study which determined the existence of a witness to the throne in a testimony dated (loosely) to the early fourth century. If that line of thought is followed the throne actually dates to third century. It is also worth noting that the Islamic tradition points to a Jewish Christian 'denial of the crucifixion.' I have never been able to figure out if this means that there was a crucifixion but Jesus escaped death (i.e. he traded places with Judas as in the Islamic pseudepigrapha) or that later Christians 'made up' the idea that Jesus was crucified. There is something unusual with respect to the crucifixion. Take Irenaeus's testimony about a longer gospel of Mark in the possession of "those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, " [AH 3.11.7] A wholly different conception of the crucifixion (presumably).

09-01-2011, 10:55 AM	#6
squiz Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Munich Germany Posts: 434	Interesting blog. I apologise if it has already been linked to here, but I found another post of hers to be noteworthy: http://phdiva.blogspot.com/2011/08/c...t-century.html You often hear that crucifixion was only for slaves, but she shows quite convincingly that it was also a punishment for treason - even among the upper classes.

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